Hybrid + close relative =???

[StefanW]

if you dont do it and wont be doing it why try to justify it?

That has a very simply reason! Because it's my opinion which I created during reading specialist literature and maybe also during my time on university or while discussing with specialists, it's simply what I think. I do not have to practice it myself to have an opinion about certain extreme views!

you are the one who started to panic and tryed to justify it.

Why not?

do you agree that interbreeding parents and pups should be avoided?

I agree, that it cannot be wrong to avoid interbreeding! That's a big difference, because I also think, that it's no problem to do it purposefully and carefully.

the only thing you gaining from doing such a thing is makeing a nicer looking ray in order to make more money from them.

Wrong, I like nice P14 with many spots myself and it's my aim to bred P14 with as many spots as possible, simply because I like those kind of P14 very much. That has primarilly nothing to do with earing more money with those kind of rays! Having a goal in a hobby is not a much too bad thing, isnt it?

i just thought because you were justifying the practice then its because you were doing it.

Wrong I've never done it myself, not even with guppys!
I am also against racism, although if I myself am a average white middle european guy and not black colored and therefore rather not involved personally

 

[sharp tooth]

Wrong, I like nice P14 with many spots myself and it's my aim to bred P14 with as many spots as possible, simply because I like those kind of P14 very much. That has primarilly nothing to do with earing more money with those kind of rays! Having a goal in a hobby is not a much too bad thing, isnt it?

so how much do you charge for a p14 with 1000 spots and how much for one with 100?

if you had a litter of pups and half had manny manny spots and half had average amount. would all pups cost the same amount to buy?

or would the manny manny spots cost more because they "look" better? even though they all took the same amount of time and effort to breed them.

im sure higher grade rays will ask a higher price, so you try to breed nicer rays to charge more money. if not why dont you charge the amount for not so good looking rays for all your rays.

at the end of the day i see how nice your rays are and how much more experiance you have in doing what you do.
i am on my little island with my personal opinion that its wrong.
you have your personal opinion that its ok to do it, carefully or not its still doing it.

can we agree to disagree as this could go on forever.

 

[T1KARMANN]

if you breed 4 x p14 pups and 2 have lots of spots and 2 don't

why should you charge more for the one with more spots

ALL 4 pups have the same genes and its possible that all 4 pups can produce pups of the same high standard with 1000 of spots or hardly any thats the way genes work

when i have my pups even if they are multi spotted they will still be sold as P14 no flash name added to boost sale the pictures will show the buyer what they are buying

 

[StefanW]

so how much do you charge for a p14 with 1000 spots and how much for one with 100?

In July, I have bred one single P14, which seems to get really extraordinarily nice to me am really very anxious, how it will develop and maybe, this one will be the first known P14 with more than 1000 spots....maybe I am wrong, but this animal is that nice, it's really a pleasure for me to look at it once and once again, all day long. I nearly cant wait until it's pattern will develop fully. But for sure, I have not had $-sings in my eyes at any time I looked at it, because I will definitly never sell it I have not ever thought only one second about the possibility to sell this ray NEVER!!!

Are you able to understand what I mean?

im sure higher grade rays will ask a higher price, so you try to breed nicer rays to charge more money.

That's wrong once again! I try to breed nicer rays, that's right, but charging more money for them, is for sure not my goal! If I'll propably get more money, for more desireable rays, I'll maybe sometimes get more money than other people get for 100 spot P14, but now, I really do not think about this. It's my HOBBY, man, it's mainly for fun and I am earning my money at my job!! Which does not mean, that I am not allowed to have goals in my hobby....which are to breed as nice and healthy pups as possible.

can we agree to disagree as this could go on forever.

Of course, in your opinion, it devilish to do linebreeding in breeding ornamental fish and in my eyes, it's acceptable when it's not done excessively and purposefully

 

[StefanW]

why should you charge more for the one with more spots

Hmmm, I am not so sure, I paid MUCH more money to get P14 with more spots myself, so why not charging more money for P14 with more spots in future, if people are propably willed to give me more money....... but what'll be, will be.....and the nicest P14 will for sure stay here at my place!

 

[T1KARMANN]

i am not a breeder i never have been and never will be

i keep and look after my rays and if they breed they breed if not its no big deal to me

im not into rays to make money i just enjoy growing pups to breeding size from new born

when or if i get pups i will sell the adults and get a new male or female from a diffrent breeder to mix up the blood line with my own pups as i did with my last adults

my tank is not big enought for 3 6 year old p14 so i sell the adults to someone who can take care of them for life

 

[DavidW]

I think there is a problem in this thread with term definitions and understanding the differences between 'in-breeding' and 'line-breeding'
here is a fairly good simple explanation: ( read the whole thing)

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html

......Exactly what the difference is between linebreeding and inbreeding tends to be defined differently for each species and often for each breed within the species. On this definition, inbreeding at its most restrictive applies to what would be considered unquestioned incest in human beings - parent to offspring or a mating between full siblings. Uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, half sibling matings, and first cousin matings are called inbreeding by some people and linebreeding by others.........

.....What does inbreeding (in the genetic sense) do? Basically, it increase the probability that the two copies of any given gene will be identical and derived from the same ancestor. Technically, the animal is homozygous for that gene. The heterozygous animal has some differences in the two copies of the gene Remember that each animal (or plant, for that matter) has two copies of any given gene (two alleles at each locus, if you want to get technical), one derived from the father and one from the mother. If the father and mother are related, there is a chance that the two genes in the offspring are both identical copies contributed by the common ancestor. This is neither good nor bad in itself. ...........

 

[lincolngoh]

I don't think anybody can say for sure they don't inbreed. How many degrees of separation is necessary before it's not considered inbreeding?

I mean seriously... how far back do any of us know the lineage of the rays we own... 2 generations 3?.

It's funny that the same people who are against inbreeding are against crossbreeding, because that is the ONLY way you can be you not not inbreeding.

 

[DavidW]

I don't think anybody can say for sure they don't inbreed. How many degrees of separation is necessary before it's not considered inbreeding?

If you bothered to read the link( http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html )I gave you before you posted you would have seen this:

>>.......Is there a way of measuring inbreeding? Wright developed what is called the inbreeding coefficient. This is related to the probability that both copies of any given gene are derived from the same ancestor......... <<

 

[DavidW]

It's funny that the same people who are against inbreeding are against crossbreeding, because that is the ONLY way you can be you not not inbreeding.

Huh?
garbage in, garbage out