Oscar, JD, and ??? upcoming 90 gallon tank

[PhishMon84]

I don’t take many photos but this guy was easily 10+ years in my tanks around 9”

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Well that’s the difference between anecdotal experiences and personal experiences!

But these people do have personal experience! Redshark being a good example.

they are tough as nails

My experience does not agree with this. Tougher than when they were smaller, absolutely.
But not tough as nails, they remain relatively sensitive fish.

Also they have these sort of like switchblade barbs which prevent them being eaten

Prevent, no. Deter in some cases, yes.
In fact, they can cause the death of 2 fish.

Kept them with all kinds of CA cichlids, including amphilophus, parachromis

How did they behave compared to being in either a single species tank or being the dominant species in a tank? Dominant species like cichlids stress loaches, which even if not visible to all, causes their behavior to differ compared to the other 2 scenarios.
RD. can vouch for this too.

pimelods and doradids

These fish are just fine to mix clown loaches with IMO. They are peaceful catfish that can't eat the loaches, not cichlids.

butterkoferi as well. We’re talking years not months or weeks

See the question on behavior.

Edit: Question, was that the only loach in the tank?

Edit 2: There is another active keeper of both loaches and cichlids on Loaches Online, called Bas Pels, who does not recommend the combo of loaches and cichlids. I will ask them for their take on this too, if possible.

 

[PhishMon84]

Well, green terrors are beautiful, but again I don't want only 1 or 2 fish in the tank. Any other suggestions for fish that break 5" and can be kept with a handful of other fish?

Pick one fish that tops out under 8” and build around that. Add fish from different trophic niches and different swimming levels.
Maybe a group of cribroheroes species? And swordtails? Or a group of firemouth types?

 

[PhishMon84]

But these people do have personal experience! Redshark being a good example.



My experience does not agree with this. Tougher than when they were smaller, absolutely.
But not tough as nails, they remain relatively sensitive fish.



Prevent, no. Deter in some cases, yes.
In fact, they can cause the death of 2 fish.



How did they behave compared to being in either a single species tank or being the dominant species in a tank? Dominant species like cichlids stress loaches, which even if not visible to all, causes their behavior to differ compared to the other 2 scenarios.
RD. can vouch for this too.



These fish are just fine to mix clown loaches with IMO. They are peaceful catfish that can't eat the loaches, not cichlids.



See the question on behavior.

Edit: Question, was that the only loach in the tank?

Edit 2: There is another active keeper of both loaches and cichlids on Loaches Online, called Bas Pels, who does not recommend the combo of loaches and cichlids. I will ask them for their take on this too, if possible.

I don’t keep species only tanks so that doesn’t apply here.

there were 4 large loaches that I had for years.

I only mention bottom dwellers given their shared spaces.
I’m familiar with bas pels.

if you utilize Instagram check out ultimatedreamfish and look to see some of Jeff Rapps more eclectically stocked tanks, he stocks the same way I do or rather I do as he does and I would say has more experiences in fish keeping than most ppl out there

 

[Something Fishy Here]

I'll do some looking into those, I did the standard community for years before with tetras, barbs, loaches, gouramis etc. and wanted something different this time. Still have a couple weeks before the tank is in, honestly I love watching any fish, but trying to plan long term without dropping $50 or more per fish.

Beautiful pics by the way, love the ornate bichir!

 

[PhishMon84]

I'll do some looking into those, I did the standard community for years before with tetras, barbs, loaches, gouramis etc. and wanted something different this time. Still have a couple weeks before the tank is in, honestly I love watching any fish, but trying to plan long term without dropping $50 or more per fish.

Beautiful pics by the way, love the ornate bichir!

I love building around a single large fish in my tanks then adding different body types and swimming types.
Thank you, she’s very active in the water column and about 17-18”

only recently did I stop trying to confirm to single continents and just go with what I like and can live in my water.

dawkinsia barbs are great dithers for cichlids too.

reach out to your LFS for a wholesale list and use that a research guide. See what’s available and what you like. It’s all fun!

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

I don’t keep species only tanks so that doesn’t apply here.

It absolutely does apply, even if you don't keep them. The point is that whether one keeps species tanks of loaches or not, they behave far more naturally in either that setting or a setting where they are dominant, compared to a subdominant cichlid tank.
Obviously you aren't going to be able to answer whether there were any differences you saw, but the point stands.

there were 4 large loaches that I had for years.

That may have an impact on things. Loaches should be in groups of 6+, when they aren't they will not behave as they would naturally.
And their natural behavior is fairy sensitive to aggressive, dominant fish like cichlids, so I'm thinking the un-natural behavior of 4 may be less incompatible with cichlids.

I only mention bottom dwellers given their shared spaces

Loaches are very adept at sharing spaces with peaceful bottom dwellers that do not dominate them (which is the issue). Indeed, I have mine with pictus catfish as you may have read in my signature.

I’m familiar with bas pels.

I see. Just curious, have you ever touched this topic with them?

if you utilize Instagram check out ultimatedreamfish and look to see some of Jeff Rapps more eclectically stocked tanks, he stocks the same way I do or rather I do as he does and I would say has more experiences in fish keeping than most ppl out there

I am very unfamiliar with both Jeff Rapps and Instagram. Perhaps I will check them out, but I am skeptical.

 

[PhishMon84]

I prefer to learn through personal experiences.

the group was initially 12 over the years it widdled down, I saw zero change in behavior.

books are just that, personal experience is far more valuable

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

I prefer to learn through personal experiences.

And the personal experience of the fishkeepers I mentioned, who have kept loaches in optimal conditions where they were single species/dominant, has taught them mixing with cichlids is a bad idea!
Perhaps you disagree with them because you don't have the experience of a single species tank.

the group was initially 12 over the years it widdled down, I saw zero change in behavior.

I'm surprised about this. With a 3 fold reduction I would have expected them to become less active, as many on Loaches Online have reported when their group size has reduced.
Nonetheless, the point about dominance stands.

books are just that, personal experience is far more valuable

As stated several times before, several keepers learned from personal experience that cichlids and loaches are a bad mix.

 

[PhishMon84]

And the personal experience of the fishkeepers I mentioned, who have kept loaches in optimal conditions where they were single species/dominant, has taught them mixing with cichlids is a bad idea!
Perhaps you disagree with them because you don't have the experience of a single species tank.



I'm surprised about this. With a 3 fold reduction I would have expected them to become less active, as many on Loaches Online have reported when their group size has reduced.
Nonetheless, the point about dominance stands.



As stated several times before, several keepers learned from personal experience that cichlids and loaches are a bad mix.

You’re trying to come up with an exact algorithm or recipe that will work every time. Unfortunately with husbandry of plants animals almost nothing is set in stone and I would hate to handicap my experiences or worldview strictly from others experiences or takeaways.
for instance seriously fish is a good starting point for research but I would, in most cases, take everything on that site with a big grain of salt.

we’ve hijacked the OPs thread enough already. It comes down to this: there’s many different ways to do things.