Piranha caught in South FLA .. This wont help the cause...

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Hello; Whether the fish in question were plant or flesh eaters, they were non native species and if they become established will disrupt the balance of the local ecosystem in some manner. This disruption is most often not a good thing. It can range from out competing native species for food to outcompeting for breeding sites. A new non native species will most often have a negative impact.
Ponds are rarely completly isolated. They usually have inflow and out flow. During high water periods fish can leave with the outflow and some can swim up stream. Once a species becomes established they often find some way to disperse.
The sad fact is that individual fish keepers have and continue to release non-native species. Some I imagine do not want to kill an unwanted pet and simply release it as an alternative. Some unintentional non-native releases have been the results of accidents or storms (Brown tree snakes hitched rides in aircraft landing gear.). It does not really matter how the plant of animal was released. The only stage at which a goverment can have an impact is the import of the non-native. One of the tools goverments use is a ban on the commercial import. This works for fish as they cannot easily hitch a ride and be unintentionally released.
 
skjl47 said:
Hello; Whether the fish in question were plant or flesh eaters, they were non native species and if they become established will disrupt the balance of the local ecosystem in some manner. This disruption is most often not a good thing. It can range from out competing native species for food to outcompeting for breeding sites. A new non native species will most often have a negative impact.
Ponds are rarely completly isolated. They usually have inflow and out flow. During high water periods fish can leave with the outflow and some can swim up stream. Once a species becomes established they often find some way to disperse.
The sad fact is that individual fish keepers have and continue to release non-native species. Some I imagine do not want to kill an unwanted pet and simply release it as an alternative. Some unintentional non-native releases have been the results of accidents or storms (Brown tree snakes hitched rides in aircraft landing gear.). It does not really matter how the plant of animal was released. The only stage at which a goverment can have an impact is the import of the non-native. One of the tools goverments use is a ban on the commercial import. This works for fish as they cannot easily hitch a ride and be unintentionally released.
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It depends on what species that can have negative effects on ecosystems but most of non-native species has a little effect on ecosystem beside the carps and the invasives of Great Lakes. Depends on where the pond is at, most ponds are isolated away from the rivers...about 5 to 25 miles away. Despite of invasives in Great lakes, the natives made a great comeback and start to feeding on them heavily.

IMO ban on commerical import isn't help for us fishkeepers. All snakehead species got banned because of one cold-tolerant species got released by an asian market. Not only this but Florida already banned keeping piranhas in Florida, which that is why this individual cannot give them away.
 
MN_Rebel said:
It depends on what species that can have negative effects on ecosystems..."
Hello; While some non-native (exotic) species may have little impact, the problem becomes that the scope of the impact cannot be known for sure untill after that species has become established. The species that have become problems have become very big and expensive problems. The list of these problem species is long and the problems they cause often cannot be fixed.
That there is no real way to anticipate problems a non native species may cause is part of the issue. Look up cane toads, they were introduced to help eat and control a previous introduced problem species. The toads turned out to be a much bigger problem themselves and did not do the job they were introduced for. Look up rabbits that were introduced into Australia. The list goes on.
I agree that the bans limit what we can keep in our tanks and as more species become banned this will further reduce what we can keep and import for the hobby. This discussion has been going on for decades. I suppose it comes down to what bothers a person the most, to be restricted on being able to have a particular species or the potential problems that species may cause if it gets into the wild.
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Like I said, only few non-native species that can causes problems with ecosystems. To my knowledge, there are no reproducing populations of piranhas and pacus in United States and both species are dirty common in the aquarium trade. People are too focused on dangerous "invasives" like snakeheads, pythons and piranhas simply because they are dangerous. Yet they made very small impacts on the ecosystems. It's all media and not based on the facts.
 
Hello; If I recall corectly the number of non-native exotic species that cause environmantal or economic problems number in the thousands in the United States including plants and animals.
The native species in ecosystems have over time filled all the available niches. When a non native species is able to survive and reproduce in a place where it has never been it will at the very least displace some of the natives. The exotics often do not have their natural predators or other limiting factors and can reproduce in greater numbers than they do in their native habitats. Even if this excessive reproduction does not happen there will be some competition with natives and the natives suffer in some degree.
It would indeed be nice if the exotic species problem was mostly hype by the media for some reason. I fear however that this is not the case. In the past as a student I wrote a thesis about the invasive water hyacinth. I kept up with the topic of invasive species over the years and usually included a section about it in my science and biology classes. When young I wanted very much for it to not be the issue it has turned out to be. As upsetting as it may be to hobbiest to have a desired species banned, ther can often be sound reasons for such a ban.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_hyacinth
http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/plant-identification/alphabetical-index/water-hyacinth/
 
If you research deep on some non-native species and you will find out that majority of non-native species pose little or no threat to the ecosystem. Media often spreads false information about some invasives such as snakeheads and pythons. Snakehead species got banned because of ONE coldwater species got dumped in the rivers by asian market not an aquarist. Also there are snakeheads already swimming in United States for over 50 years and nobody noticed them.

If I remember, all serious invasive species do not come from aquarist' fish releases. Not aquarist's fault which that is why we are against a ban because none of the invasives come from aquarium trade.
 
MN_Rebel said:
If you research deep on some non-native species and you will find out that majority of non-native species pose little or no threat to the ecosystem. Media often spreads false information about some invasives such as snakeheads and pythons. Snakehead species got banned because of ONE coldwater species got dumped in the rivers by asian market not an aquarist. Also there are snakeheads already swimming in United States for over 50 years and nobody noticed them.

If I remember, all serious invasive species do not come from aquarist' fish releases. Not aquarist's fault which that is why we are against a ban because none of the invasives come from aquarium trade.
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Hello; Are you sure about this? The initial post of this thread is about piranha being found in a Florida pond. Some decades ago There were reports about a type of invasive walking catfish linked to the aquarium trade. I am fairly sure that there are established populations of invasive oscars in the wild. It seems likely that the oscars were involved with the aquarium trade. I also think that some invasive plants were linked to the aquarium trade. One of the principals I try to live by, having been trained in the sciences, is to give real consideration to any new evidence. Please feel free to present evidence for this. I have had to incorporate new evidence and change a point of view at times over the years. Perhaps it is that we have a different point of view about what is considered serious?
 
If you remember most fish farms were destoryed by hurricanes causes the fish escaped into the waters. Walking catfish of Florida do not come from aquarium trade but actually an Asian market and the walking catfish populations are decreasing in recent years.

There are no evidence that oscars pose a threat to the ecosystems or natives. As I said, these oscars were most likely escaped from fish farms when the hurricanes hit.

Piranhas have discovered in Florida in the past but no known reproducing populations existed, suggests that the piranhas cannot reproduce in Florida just like their giant cousins, pacu which also cannot reproduce in Florida or Hawaii. The only one harmful exotic in Florida would be common pleco, however they do not come from releases but like most exotics, they escaped from fish farm.

Most harmful species dont come from aquarists. Carps, zebra mussels, round gobies, sea lamprey and our famous flying carps, are harmful invasives and they dont even come from aquarium trade.

Like I said research deeply on this subject and you will learn lots of this subject.
 
Hello; Is it not correct that Fish farms that lost the oscars and other fish were part of the aquarium trade with the purpose to supply the fish for home aquaria? Would not the same sort of storms be able to release fish from a home aquarium?
I guess that we are not likely to come to an agreement on the subject. I thank you for having a civil reasoned discussion.
 
Yes it is correct that they are part of aquarium trade but the media claiming that we fishkeepers are responsible for dumping exotic fish into the waters. Of course there are some idiots do that, but the serious invasive species don't even come from aquarium trade aka northern snakeheads, walking catfish, tilapias, carps, Great Lakes invasives and of course goldfish (come from bait releases). How many harmful invasive species come from actual pet releases? (other than fish farms, bait releases and asian markets) You tell me.
 
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