Rotkeil Severum

[RD.]

Very interesting, I always assumed that this was a pure wild strain.

 

[ryansmith83]

So, I've had 'wild' rotkeils, have seen respected importers sell 'wild' rotkeils over the years. If the above is true, these are apparently being exported from Peru as wild? --unless they would eventually turn up in the wild somewhere, in which case I suppose you could still question the source of them,. as to whether they might be a natural wild hybrid or a man made-released into the wild hybrid.

Here's the timeline as I understood it:

- In 1996, a very limited number of Heros from Rio Uaupes were imported into Germany. These are the red-shouldered fish that would later be described as true Heros severus. The import only included a single female fish and a short article that was written about them says that they were not spawned until 2003.

- In the meantime, in 2000, the first rotkeils appeared in a German pet shop. They were "discovered" by the same hobbyist who possessed the true Heros severus (Frank Warzel).

- In 2003, Aquarium Glaser in Germany begins importing "wild" rotkeil from Peru.

This is pure speculation, but it's possible that the male severus imported were spawned with appendiculatus and the strain was then refined over a couple of years with line-breeding. Peter Dittrich wrote one of the first articles about them in 2002 after obtaining some of the very first specimens available publicly. He and a colleague both noted that those early fish were highly variable, and some even included the 8 1/2 bars of severus.

A few of us with true severus are trying to determine whether or not you can "create" rotkeils by spawning them to appendiculatus so we will see.

Very interesting, I always assumed that this was a pure wild strain.

That's what most of us have assumed, because that's what we've been told. I have lots of them myself. It wasn't until I got true H. severus and started poking around that I realized there was some dispute as to how rotkeils came to be.

What I can tell you, after getting my import license and shopping around the fish exporters' lists in South America, is that several of the big names who are dealing wild cichlids are actually raising them in dug-out ponds. In addition to native SA fish they are also breeding and exporting lots of general tropicals from around the world, much like the big fish farms in south Florida are doing. I know of one very reputable source who is catching cichlids in the rivers, then bringing them back to these ponds and releasing them to essentially breed and sell them in a controlled environment. Do we still consider those "wild-caught"?

You've probably also seen my thread about so-called Cichlasoma sp. 'Esmeraldas gold.' Is that a fish you'd find in the wild, considering it's essentially a leucistic/xanthic fish with no defensive pattern or camouflage? And yet it was imported as a wild-caught fish from Ecuador.

I question everything now, lol.

 

[neutrino]

@ryansmith83 ...Very interesting. Makes me happy I prefer to approach things logically and didn't overreact to something different from what I'd always 'known', only to look bad when you provided more information... on the other hand, glad I said I needed more information...

When I add up the numbers of my first 'wild' rotkeil, seems like I got it in 03, possibly 04. Took some research to figure out what my 'red headed severum' was (and now wasn't), not much information about them at the time. Nice fish either way ime. Mine were actually very stable, bred very true.

 

[RD.]

I know of one very reputable source who is catching cichlids in the rivers, then bringing them back to these ponds and releasing them to essentially breed and sell them in a controlled environment. Do we still consider those "wild-caught"?

I certainly do not. Which begs the question, does your reputable source?

 

[ryansmith83]

I certainly do not. Which begs the question, does your reputable source?

This particular source has been pretty good about calling them F1, but I have heard from other collectors who’ve traveled to SA to collect their own cichlids and toured lots of fish farms who are now just pond raising or pond breeding stock. It’s probably cheaper and easier than paying fishermen to go out and collect the basic stuff.

Watch this video by Ted Judy. It introduces Hernando Gil who is catching small altums and growing them out in ponds to ensure their fins are healed and perfect before export. He is also now captive breeding Uaru fernandezyepezi.

 

[RD.]

I have no problem with suppliers using ponds, as long as they (and the vendors downstream from them) are honest in how the fish are represented. Ponds and concrete vats have been used in various remote "wild" locations for a lot of years.

 

[neutrino]

Imo wild collecting, then temporarily conditioning them in tanks or ponds before shipping is one thing, potentially a good thing if it improves shipping survival, but breeding in ponds and calling the fry wild is another. Collecting babies and growing them out before shipping... eh... kind of takes some of the romance out of "wild".

 

[batang_mcdo]

I'm just curious why they would bring back Rotkiels and breed them as wild caught in Peru?
Since rotkiels aren't that expensive and I don't think it will be worth it to work on breeding them in peru and exporting them back out?

Also anybody been able to breed severus to other severums?
severums I've seen so far seem to be much larger than the efecsiatus and rotkiels?

sorry to hijack this thread, there's just doubt in my mind .

 

[neutrino]

It is believed by some that rotkeils are not truly naturally occurring fish. They are from “Peru” but no collection point has ever been revealed and there is no documentation of them in the wild. Some theorize that appendiculatus from Peru were crossed with a lone male Heros severus imported to Germany over a decade ago, and those resulting hybrid fry were the origins of the rotkeil. These fish were then sold back to the importer to be pond-raised in and distributed from Peru. The first few generations of rotkeils were highly variable, and we still see that today. So even when we talk about “rotkeil” we are talking about a likely manmade fish that wildly varies between individuals.

I'm right now in the process of ordering fish from Jeff Rapps. He currently has cf. efasciatus 'rotkeil' from Rio Nanay on his list-- bingo, a collection point. So I asked him about the man made hybrid theory. His answer: "Rotkeil are absolutely a wild-occurring form of efasciatus (or perhaps will be distinguished as separate species - as opposed to geographic form/color variant). I have imported them from Peru countless times."

 

[neutrino]

And come to think of it, for what it's worth I first had rotkeil over 15 years ago. Also bred them and raised many and mine all grew up to be dead ringer just like the parents.