Tiny discovery that is definately worth sharing.

Kogo

Candiru
MFK Member
Nov 26, 2007
379
12
48
South Florida
nice job FM, plants are the way to go for sure.

here is a link to my project where I use plants only for filtration
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153346

I've been working with some other plant filtration projects and have had all possitive results. The next project due to start soon will be a 180g planted tank for discus. No filtration only powerheads for circulation.

Also, way to go with taking this project into the school. The kids realy respond to the aquariums especialy when you are doing something uniqe with them.

keep it up,
Matt Kogo
 

Just Toby

Fire Eel
MFK Member
Apr 22, 2010
2,434
176
66
Guildford UK
I<3fish;4107043; said:
The "fertilizer" you are talking about is from fish wastes in the water. And if you feed fish cooked or uncooked, it makes no difference to the plants, actually uncooked is healthier for fish, so you really do not know what you are talking about. I suggest you read up on the nitrogen cycle and the nutrients that plants take up.

What do you think regular crops are grown from? (animal crap and sewage water...) The only health risks would be from meds that have effects on humans.

And could you give this so called "medical evidence?"

Edit: I see you were talking about hydroponics, not aquaponics, although aquaponics is more efficient and still grows edible plants off of fish wastes.
Wow, when did the discussion turn in to attack?

The evidence is hard to collect as based on many articles published in practical fishkeeping magazine which is the best selling mag in the uk.

"40% of all admitted cases for food poisoning over the tested period had some relation to fish tank maintenance" taken from recent artile I read.

Yes, cooked or uncooked makes no difference to the plants...I agree but lets do a test...keep some lettuce on raw chicken for 1 week and then eat it...let me know how that works out.

I did not suggest that uncooked was bad for plant OR fish, it is down to the bacteria that grows that are bad for US

You say I need to read up on the nitrogen cycle, well I could write a book on this..could you?

Literature that I have read suggests we do not eat it, I passed on the message as a word of caution in good faith, I read a lot, have a thirst for knowledge and have empathy for people with food poisioning...you my learned friend can do what you desire!
 

I<3fish

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 29, 2008
2,342
5
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CALIFORNIA
Just Toby;4107138; said:
Wow, when did the discussion turn in to attack?

Sorry.

The evidence is hard to collect as based on many articles published in practical fishkeeping magazine which is the best selling mag in the uk.

"40% of all admitted cases for food poisoning over the tested period had some relation to fish tank maintenance" taken from recent artile I read.

Well, it says maintenance, not eating plant products from aquaria.

Yes, cooked or uncooked makes no difference to the plants...I agree but lets do a test...keep some lettuce on raw chicken for 1 week and then eat it...let me know how that works out.

Placing lettuce on raw chicken is very different from placing raw chicken or animal of any kind in an aquarium, and then having the plants take that nitrate out of the water (nitrate that comes from broken down raw meats.) The plants are not transferring any bacteria to the vegetables/fruits. Same as if you were to bury raw chicken (or fish) in the ground as fertilizer for growing crops. All this does is break down the waste and convert it to food for plants, bacteria does not run up the stem of the plant when the food source in the water/better living conditions are in the water. In summary, there is basically no transfer of bacteria to plants as the only thing transfered to plants are nitrate/other wastes and minerals in the water.

I did not suggest that uncooked was bad for plant OR fish, it is down to the bacteria that grows that are bad for US

Read what I wrote up there. And to add, cooked chicken or raw chicken has basically nothing to do with how it breaks down under water, it will grow bacteria either way, yet this bacteria will still, not be transfered to the plants.

You say I need to read up on the nitrogen cycle, well I could write a book on this..could you?

Yes, it is a very easy concept to understand. And I am well versed at it.

Literature that I have read suggests we do not eat it, I passed on the message as a word of caution in good faith, I read a lot, have a thirst for knowledge and have empathy for people with food poisioning...you my learned friend can do what you desire!

I know some who have grown tomatoes and other plants in their sump, and many in the aquaponics business that eat what they grow and have never had a case of food poisoning from their food. In fact, they are most likely more healthy than most americans (the aquaponics/hydroponics people that is) due to the organic foods with no added crap to it.

I am a big supporter of eating organic foods/free range animals because they are a lot healthier than other foods and I will probably try growing some type of plant in my 300 gallon's sump. It may not be a food plant however (but I may choose to.)
Replies in red.
 

Just Toby

Fire Eel
MFK Member
Apr 22, 2010
2,434
176
66
Guildford UK
Ok, in the interests of discussion:

I have read MANY times that Koi keepers using veg filters should not eat the plants grown in the water.

My point about food poisoning following MAINTENANCE was to highlight that the relevant bacteria was prevalent in fish tanks. I was not confusing the two.

I think this is clearly a two sided argument and therefore eat it if you wish but understand the risks.

I too massively believe in organic food - we buy this where possible over any other choice, I am also trying to buy a 1/3rd acre next to my house to grow food and I already have rain water recovery for irrigation.

I am not going to eat anything produced by my tank when I try this but I will get off my soap box now.

I hope that I have not offended anyone including I3Fish as I am new here and do not want to become a "key board warrior"
 

coyotethug

Gambusia
MFK Member
Sep 3, 2005
551
4
16
47
Michigan
Be careful, the birds that fly by, the insects and other invertebrates in and on the soil, the rabbits, squirrels, fieldmice, etc. that will be living in or around your garden all contain some level of E. coli in their intestinal tracts which could be potennially pathenogenic. You better not eat that food in your garden or you could get sick. :naughty:

I was at Epcot two weeks ago and saw the aquaponics system that they have and ate a salad that was grown in that specific system. They seemed pretty proud to serve me fish poop lettuce.

Be careful about the statements you make.

"You say I need to read up on the nitrogen cycle, well I could write a book on this..could you?"

The interesting thing about a forum like this is that no one really knows the other members backgrounds. How much experience, education, and knowledge that someone actually has may not be fully expressed or understood. I know of members to this and other similar forums who have research published in multiple peer reviewed journals. Not to say you couldn't, but I have multiple degrees in life sciences and am about to start my PhD in this field, and I don't think I could write more than a chapter on the nitrogen cycle itself. Martin A. Moe only has about 20 pages on the subject, and that seemed pretty exhaustive to me.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but lets step back a second and think both logically and biologically about this.

Plant root systems work by basic diffusion through a selectively permeable layer of cells into a network of tubes. Large molecules such as larger proteins can't cross this barrier, so how could a bacterium?

If you are splashing fish poo up on your plants, you may want to wash them first before you eat them, but if the water soluable nutrients are simply being taken in through the roots, there is no contact with the edible parts of the plants in the first place unless your growing carrots which really aren't suited for this type of system anyways.

Not washing your hands is the number one cause of food poisining, and not washing your hands after they have been in an animals environment is most likely what Practical Fishkeeping Magazine was talking about. Also, I would like to see their evidence. It is not like this is a peer reviewed journal anyways, their job is to sell magazines not disseminate research based information. Not to say it is bad info, just not as strictly checked as a scientific peer reviewed journal.

I have actually been siphoning my 240 ray tank right into my potted vegetables and herbs now for 4 months. Never had better tasting or faster growing herbs ever, and no fertilizer otherwise. Will let you know how the tomatoes and peppers are in a month or so, and how the limes are in the fall.
 

Just Toby

Fire Eel
MFK Member
Apr 22, 2010
2,434
176
66
Guildford UK
I was passing on info...up to you what you do with it.

I fully appreciate your comment of "be careful what you write" I am and in fact I always preach that you should be impeccable with your word (meaning do not say it unless you mean it), also be careful who you doubt as they may be the real thing!

You can mock me all you like, I have a thick skin.

My point was one of caution, simply recylcling info that I respect.

I will not continue to defend this thread as my good intentions seem not to be appreciated.
 

I<3fish

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 29, 2008
2,342
5
0
CALIFORNIA
coyotethug;4109450; said:
Be careful, the birds that fly by, the insects and other invertebrates in and on the soil, the rabbits, squirrels, fieldmice, etc. that will be living in or around your garden all contain some level of E. coli in their intestinal tracts which could be potennially pathenogenic. You better not eat that food in your garden or you could get sick. :naughty:

I was at Epcot two weeks ago and saw the aquaponics system that they have and ate a salad that was grown in that specific system. They seemed pretty proud to serve me fish poop lettuce.

Be careful about the statements you make.

"You say I need to read up on the nitrogen cycle, well I could write a book on this..could you?"

The interesting thing about a forum like this is that no one really knows the other members backgrounds. How much experience, education, and knowledge that someone actually has may not be fully expressed or understood. I know of members to this and other similar forums who have research published in multiple peer reviewed journals. Not to say you couldn't, but I have multiple degrees in life sciences and am about to start my PhD in this field, and I don't think I could write more than a chapter on the nitrogen cycle itself. Martin A. Moe only has about 20 pages on the subject, and that seemed pretty exhaustive to me.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but lets step back a second and think both logically and biologically about this.

Plant root systems work by basic diffusion through a selectively permeable layer of cells into a network of tubes. Large molecules such as larger proteins can't cross this barrier, so how could a bacterium?

If you are splashing fish poo up on your plants, you may want to wash them first before you eat them, but if the water soluable nutrients are simply being taken in through the roots, there is no contact with the edible parts of the plants in the first place unless your growing carrots which really aren't suited for this type of system anyways.

Not washing your hands is the number one cause of food poisining, and not washing your hands after they have been in an animals environment is most likely what Practical Fishkeeping Magazine was talking about. Also, I would like to see their evidence. It is not like this is a peer reviewed journal anyways, their job is to sell magazines not disseminate research based information. Not to say it is bad info, just not as strictly checked as a scientific peer reviewed journal.

I have actually been siphoning my 240 ray tank right into my potted vegetables and herbs now for 4 months. Never had better tasting or faster growing herbs ever, and no fertilizer otherwise. Will let you know how the tomatoes and peppers are in a month or so, and how the limes are in the fall.
Thank you, this is what I was trying to explain without being extremely descriptive like you have. I think you explained this very well and should sway people from thinking food grown from aquaponics was "dirty" when in fact it does not have any pesticides used on it, which in turn, makes it "organic" and is much less likely to get you sick than other forms of growing foods via plants.
 

I<3fish

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 29, 2008
2,342
5
0
CALIFORNIA
Just Toby;4109174; said:
Ok, in the interests of discussion:

I have read MANY times that Koi keepers using veg filters should not eat the plants grown in the water.

My point about food poisoning following MAINTENANCE was to highlight that the relevant bacteria was prevalent in fish tanks. I was not confusing the two.

I think this is clearly a two sided argument and therefore eat it if you wish but understand the risks.

I too massively believe in organic food - we buy this where possible over any other choice, I am also trying to buy a 1/3rd acre next to my house to grow food and I already have rain water recovery for irrigation.

I am not going to eat anything produced by my tank when I try this but I will get off my soap box now.

I hope that I have not offended anyone including I3Fish as I am new here and do not want to become a "key board warrior"
Not offended, don't worry.

And I applaud you for growing your own food, it is a very painstaking process. But the turn out will make you proud.

And I wouldn't trust "koi keepers", how many of them have degrees in bacteria-related courses or biological courses? How many of them actually work in a job that involves the aforementioned? It is just like someone writing an article they know nothing about, or they have very limited knowledge on the subject.
 

sbuse

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 1, 2009
7,728
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IN YOUR HEAD
i have a tank just filtered by plants and a sponge...it has payara, dats, jurunese cat, peacock eel and a jardini aro for stock...plants are 9 amazon swards, a lilly pad plant...the "filter" is an AC70 with just the sponge in it and a vine plant like in FMs sump...the tank is by a bay window so it gets direct sun all day...the water is crystal clear, perams are 10, 0, 0...ph is 7.5...temp is 78f...all the fish are stable and healthy...

all my other tank i have stuck plants in the hob filters and they are all with the same perams and clearity
 
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