Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

[RD.]

BTW Cory, Charles Harrison holds a PhD in chemistry, and IMO in the past has given some very poor advice on treating sick fish. He may have had good intentions, but ...…..

Levamisole is safe with rays, but only when dosed correctly. Otherwise, all bets are off. I posted the following years ago, and again just yesterday in another discussion here on MFK. The correct manner to treat is treat using dosage stated below (2 ppm) for 24 hrs, wait 2 weeks, and treat again.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa091



The scientific community considers 2ppm of Levasimole HCl to be an adequate dosage, which works out to 1gr per 100 gallons, not 5gr per 100 gallons as constantly reported on the internet.

The 5gr dosage rate originates from Charles Harrison, who is a chemist/ fish hobbyist, that sells (or used to sell?) Levasimole HCl, not a VMD that specializes in treating tropical fish. (such as Dr. Roy Yanong)

Dr. Yanong also suggests that the treatment duration be 24 hrs, not 3 days as currently suggested by Charles Harrison. It appears that Charles got his info from a killi hobbyist (Ken Laidlaw), that as far as I can tell has no real qualifications for treating fish for disease etc beyond the hobbyist level.


Dr. Roy Yanong's bio ......

http://sfrc.ufl.edu/people/faculty/yanong/


HTH

 

[Coryloach]

BTW Cory, Charles Harrison holds a PhD in chemistry, and IMO in the past has given some very poor advice on treating sick fish. He may have had good intentions, but ...…

Flubendazole is a great med regardless. It is the best de-wormer out there that tackles several issues such as round, flat worms and protozoa, including hex. His paper was just a decoration to my post, not a testament to its truthfulness. But thank you.

By the way, any examples of his "poor advice" as I am now curious to know where you're coming from out of being nosy.

Somewhat yes, but in the vast majority of cases the "holes" in a fishes head, tend to be caused by S. vortens. I have not come across any literature that suggests that C. iulbilans is associated with HITH.

What I have read is that the symptoms are very similar but I can't tell you right now if it will cause HITH, meaning hole in the head, due to lack of specific information out there. The drug of choice for treating is dimetridazole which also tackles spironucleus vortens so it might be a no brainer to switch to a less common med in the same family as metronidazole when attempting to cure persistent HITH. Flubendazole is also in the same family of meds but broader spectrum.

 

[RD.]

Expand the quote I posted, his poor advice is pretty clear. I'm not debating the meds that you mentioned, other than the difficulty for some folks in getting them. In comparison metronidazole is widely available through companies such as Seachem.

From what I have seen over the years most fish with HITH symptoms will still actively eat, on the other hand fish suffering from an infestation of C. iubilans will go off of their feed, suffer from what appears to be 02 depeletion, and waste away. http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm077

No mention of open pits or holes in the heads of fish with late stages of C. iubilans in any of the papers that I have read, I agree though, without a microscope and knowing exactly what to look for one could easily be confused with the other.

 

[Coryloach]

In comparison metronidazole is widely available through companies such as Seachem.

I actually just found flubendazole for fish in your part of the world. See link below

Flubendazole

 

[RD.]

LOL, I'm not looking for flubendazole. And moving forward, in Canada, that med currently requires a script from a DVM. That vendor is actually breaking the law by selling it.

Fish Antibiotics Vet Only in Canada

*Canadian fish keepers* They have banned fish medicine for canadians (unsure if just Ontario or all of canada) and now Bigals and many other fish stores will no longer sell fish medications such as Seachem Paraguard. Amazon is currently still selling it and I highly suggest you pick up a large...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

 

[RD.]

Too late to edit, but I think I might have misspoke about it's legality currently in Canada. Either way, I wasn't looking for any. lol

 

[CANAMONSTER]

I was told only fish antibiotics are or will no longer be available.

 

[CANAMONSTER]

Great thread! Lots of different topics have been touched here. I would like to just add on the good portion of this thread in regards to terrestrial protein or any animal protein for that matter.

Protein is protein and there is different qualities of it. ANIMAL being the best and highest quality form. Not peas, or beans.

Protein is very much more important then people realize for most cichlids.

Meat gives all the vitamins and minerals cichlids need and can do very much with out any vegetation. If they eat vegetation in the wild it is purely to fill in in between protein meals.

It has been proven over and over that beef heart is very beneficial to discus.

How can an omnivore do so well in purely meat?
Because vegetation is not a necessity.

 

[RD.]

Mike, beyond quick gains in growth, beef heart has never been proven to be beneficial to discus. You might want to read the following past discussion.

I'm sorry, but feeding mammal meat of any kind to a finfish is No Bueno in my books. You asked about papers/studies, Amy, so here's a link to a more recent scientific paper that I think every discus owner/breeder should read.


http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008



"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."



"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."


Heiko Bleher wrote the following…………


What do Discus eat?


I have examined hundreds of specimens during many years and stomach and gut contents among wild Discus indicate an order of precedence: detritus, then plant material (flowers, fruits, seeds, leaves), algae and micro-algae, aquatic invertebrates and terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. The Amazon has adapted to nature for fishes during millennia of evolution. Plants of the tropical rainforest have little water and cannot flourish during the dry season so cannot waste energy. The same happens to most freshwater fishes.

During the dry period, with a much reduced water level and hardly any food source — except for predators — many fish starve or feed on the little available, usually detritus.

Discus and many other fishes eat what they can get, but have to be constantly aware of carnivorous predators. During the six to nine months of floods, almost all trees and bushes, flower and have fruits and seeds — which is the main nutrition of roughly 75% of all Amazonian fishes.

The adults, and babies which grow to adults in that period, can then fill their stomachs and guts.

The carnivorous predators starve as they cannot find their prey in the huge water masses.


How much nutrition?


I have found the following percentage of nutrition in each one of the three species:


Symphysodon discus during low water: 55% detritus; 15% plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 10% aquatic invertebrates; 8% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. During high water: 28% detritus; 52% plant material; 5% algae and micro-algae; 3% aquatic invertebrates; 12% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.


Symphysodon aequifasciatus low water: 52% detritus; 18% plant material; 15% algae and micro-algae; 13% aquatic invertebrates; 2% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 8% detritus; 62% plant material; 8% algae and micro-algae; 5% aquatic invertebrates; 17% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.


Symphysodon haraldi low water: 39% detritus; 9% plant material; 25% algae and micro-algae; 22% aquatic invertebrates; 5% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 6% detritus; 44% Plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 16% aquatic invertebrates; 22% terrestrial and aboreal arthropods.

.............................................................



Not exactly a species of fish geared towards eating high protein foods such as mammal meat, and the fact that many discus owners still feed their fish foods such as beef heart doesn't equate to it being an ideal form of nutrition. According to the most recent science available, I would think far from it.


Several years ago Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5 grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species. I have no argument with those stats, and again the same could be said for thousands of other ornamental species of fish, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of Discus keepers to support their use of a high protein diet such as beef heart. I have never understood the logic in that.


Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart.



Even a lot of the old school discus keepers have moved away from foods such as beef heart over the past decade, for these exact reasons. It's a great food for breeders that simply want quick growth in their juvenile fish (so they can take them to market quicker) but in my opinion it is most certainly not an ideal long term diet due to the potential of fatty degeneration of the liver.


Jack Wattley has recently stated that a good staple pellet or flake food is more ideal for optimum health. In the Dec 2006 edition of Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine, Jack stated:


"I've moved in a new direction regarding the feeding of discus, and after many tests feel that a top quality flake or pellet food formulated especially for discus is perhaps the best direction to take.”




The late Dr. Schmidt-Focke was one of the first to realize health problems when feeding foods such as beef heart, and quit feeding his discus beef heart in favor of a seafood based diet. Dieter Untergasser has also demonstrated the harm beefheart can have on discus and other long lived cichlids. And there are studies that have taken place that demonstrated that when too much protein is fed to a juvenile discus it can have the opposite effect, as it requires energy to excrete the excess amino acids (protein), which is energy that could have been used for growth.


It is my opinion that the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins etc. as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 30-40 yrs. ago, and with a nutrient dense commercial food a fish will generally always be consuming more nutrients on a daily basis than they typically would in the wild. This equates to steady healthy even growth in a fish. Perhaps one won't see the massive gains as they would when feeding mammal meat, but I personally don't see slower more even growth a negative.

Please, read the entire discussion before commenting about beef, and discus.


As far as vegetation or plant matter, aquatic plant matter offers a number of substances that add nutritional value to a diet - of any fish. I'm referring to actual aquatic plant matter, not terrestrial based plant matter such as peas, beans, corn, etc. Vitamins, minerals, fiber, and various micronutrients all required for optimom health over the long haul.

 

[CANAMONSTER]

Mike, beyond quick gains in growth, beef heart has never been proven to be beneficial to discus. You might want to read the following past discussion.




Please, read the entire discussion before commenting about beef, and discus.


As far as vegetation or plant matter, aquatic plant matter offers a number of substances that add nutritional value to a diet - of any fish. I'm referring to actual aquatic plant matter, not terrestrial based plant matter such as peas, beans, corn, etc. Vitamins, minerals, fiber, and various micronutrients all required for optimom health over the long haul.

I understand that their wild diet is plant matter but that doesn't mean protein from meat is not beneficial to them. I kind of look at it like back in the day you had poor pilgrims who's main staple was grains and only eat meat once a year. Is that because it was best for them or because it was easier and a cheaper means of energy. I'm also hard pressed to believe dietary fat causes fatty liver as this is also what they thought with us humans but has now been know that is false. It's processed fat that is the culprit. I would also like to see a study showing the I'll effects of a meat protein only diet with a omnivorous species as I don't believe there is any?

Meat contains many vitamins and minerals and amino acids that plays just don't have. I ask how come discus fed only meat protein look to be in very pristine health after several years if it has negative health effects? I'll give an example of Alexander Piwow's fish for one! When a human eats like ****, they look like ****. I know fish are not human but many things can relate.

Also let's be frank here Neil, Jack Watley is a king when it comes to fish but I wouldn't put that title on him in regards to nutrition. Well unless he was getting money for his name being slapped on a popular fish feed??

After years of research and keeping fish I have changed my view on what is best for fish to eat. You just can't get the whole goodness in a pellet like you can in whole frozen meat. There is added junk and low quality crap in all pellets because you won't have fish speaking out against it. It's not human food grade.

Just my opinion anyway.