Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

[duanes]

For me its always seemed to to be the combination of negative factors added together that become most problematic, e.g.hard water, and lack of water changes together for soft water fish.
Once "one" of those negative factors is eliminated, such as when the water change schedule is increased (being the easiest to do), things often dramatically improve.
(Adding tannins also helped for me, especially if spawning was the goal.)
The problem with trying to ascertain cause, is that when placing a soft water fish in hard water, the negative effects take time to become symptomatic, are not immediately obvious, so are often misdiagnosed later on as an introduced pathogen, or parasite, because the chronic effects often take a couple years to cause visible damage.
Hard water fish are no exception when it come to the effects of a wimpy water change schedule.

I have been testing the natural waters in Panama lately, where my wild fish are coming from, the nitrate readings have so far been non-detectable.
And even in a small stream, flowing to small pools full of leaf litter, dotted with vulture feces, and only partially full because of the dry season, even there nitrate was undetectable.

 

[RD.]

Yet that doesn't explain how my friends 9-10" S. leucosticta came down with HITH in hard water that had nitrate levels between 5-10 ppm year round. Lots of other "soft water" fish in his tank, but only the leucosticta that had issues. Again, almost impossible to state with 100% certainty as to the cause when HITH surfaces, poor quality water (not just nitrates) is just one potential trigger.

From my observations in this heavily stocked 550 gallon, this group of large adult S. leucosticta were always fighting among themselves. Many people think that eartheaters in general are some kind of schooling fish in the wild, while in reality most are only seen with a female during spawning season, or while juveniles. Adults in the non breeding season generally fly solo. IMHO that chronic stress of being forced together as adults, with what I think was a group heavy with males, the chronic stress of that environment is what caused this group to come down with HITH. That, and they are a species of fish that is known among the hobby as being sensitive towards this condition. I don't believe that hard water had anything to do with it, and it certainly wasn't caused from high nitrates.

 

[duanes]

It sounds like the aggression may have been the determining factor those Satanoperca.
But here's, where my opinion about nitrate differs.
I consider 5-10ppm high enough to warrant a water change on my tanks.
From my testing of Lake Michigan raw water for 20 years on the job every day, with an average nitrate reading of <1ppm, and now the Pacora river in Panama (non-detectable nitrate on my kit) and the little stream up the hill on Isla Taboga, again, surprising to me, non-detectable.
I believe what may be considered tolerable by average aquarium standards, may be a lofty assertion compared to what I see in nature.

 

[neutrino]

Many people think that eartheaters in general are some kind of schooling fish in the wild, while in reality most are only seen with a female during spawning season, or while juveniles. Adults in the non breeding season generally fly solo.

Have my own opinion and experience but I'll take the easy way out here and avoid debating nitrates.

Experience has taught me, and I often say, that while geos like to be in groups as juvies, as adults they're perfectly content as a single pair with other fish. The other side of the coin is that a group of 5 or 6 'shoaling' fish is actually minimal for shoaling behavior and may or may not work as you'd like. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Five or six discus, angels, geos, tetras or whatever may not be enough. 8, 10, or 12 gives you better odds. But not everyone has room or can afford higher numbers, or you're leaving room for more than one species. But I see it a lot, the big gorgeous tank with a dozen or more discus or wild angels, or the peaceful ten or twelve Geo sveni or whatever doesn't always translate quite the same as five of them in a 75.

If you go to the Stendker discus site (I don't mean Discus Hans, I mean the original in Germany) they recommend discus in groups of 10 or more to prevent what some think is 'typical' discus behavior where the weak one gets picked on, doesn't get the food, etc.

 

[RD.]

Yes, agreed Duane, except if that was the case almost every fish in home aquaria would suffer from HITH, certainly all of those species from softer, lower pH water. Yet that clearly isn't the case, even among those fish that are known to be more susceptible to HITH. The vast majority of natural bodies of water will have zero nitrates, but in our glass boxes we are in no way replicating natural conditions, not with regards to water, or anything else.


I agree with what you stated neutrino, but this was a very busy heavily stocked tank, and 500+ gallons of water & room for these fish to spread out. It still didn't work out, perhaps with several more females it would have? Hard to say.

 

[neutrino]

I'll just say this on nitrates and not to debate the subject. I doubt I've ever had near zero nitrates, except immediately after I've occasionally done a 100% water change. At one time I tested nitrates, but I haven't had reason or the need for quite a while. Highest I ever tested was a long time ago, tested as 40 in a fabulously overstocked Malawi tank. I'd do a big water change, bring it down to 20, it would end up at 40 in a few days. This started me down the road of no longer fabulously overstocking tanks. Ultimately, my tanks run @ 5-ish-- this has been the case for long enough that I eventually left off testing. Ime nitrate levels are not just a function of water changes, but include factors like reasonable stock levels, not overfeeding, healthy substrate, plants if you have them, keeping filters clean, etc.

For all of my variance of methods or approach over the years, I've only ever had a single, mild, quickly cured case of HITH. One single case-- ever.

(I saw a case once where someone had recurrent lateral line, HITH issues with Cyphotilapia. He tried everything, then finally fixed it by mineralizing his tank better, meaning there was apparently an imbalance.)

 

[RD.]

There are plenty of hobbyists that have in excess of 5 ppm nitrates in their tap water. In the UK it would probably be rare not to have at least 5-10 ppm.

 

[Coryloach]

I am just wondering for example, why are we only making a big issue with South American soft water cichlids living in hard water? What about Asian soft water fish? Why do we not hear much about them suffering water related issues when kept in hard water?

It seems to me that the popularity of the relatively large South American cichlids, combined with them often being kept in overstocked tanks, plus their aggressive and territorial nature and the habit of fish keepers of combing several aggressive fish in the same tank, could be contributing majorly to the health issues those fish tend to have.

I personally have not tested nitrates in years. I test only TDS. I pretty much do enough water changes so I don't ever get a rise between tank and tap. I consider high oxygen content as the most important parameter so I try mitigating any factors that maybe sucking up oxygen in the tank, that includes not overstocking the tanks, removing organics, keeping good surface agitation and relatively high flow, keeping pre-filters on my intakes and not using my filters as siphons, keeping plants.I keep soft water fish in hard water...I have not noticed any issues.

I'd say very few people keep their fish in water close to that of their natural habitat. Even if some think they do, they probably don't. Keeping for example fish in water with very low conductivity/TDS is very difficult, if impossible in aquariums due to the lack of buffering in the small body of water. In fact, soft water fish kept in straight RO water or water with very low conductivity lacking buffering capacity, will often have even bigger issues. In nature such waters are buffered by humic and fulvic substances. We can't replicate that in a small scale such as aquariums because the aquariums are also a dump for fish urine... If we can, it is extremely difficult and requires very good understanding of chemistry plus constant care to keep things stable. The point is, the fish will do better in slightly harder buffered water.

Also, how many cichlid keepers own a TDS meter? Having a low pH does not equate to soft, low conductivity/TDS water to which these fish are adapted. In insufficiently maintained tanks the TDS tends to rise progressively and the pH tends to drop, the water becomes acidic but not soft...., yet most people only measure nitrates...

 

[Coryloach]

(Adding tannins also helped for me, especially if spawning was the goal.)

Latest science points out that humic and fulvic substances are extremely important for the health of the fish, any fish in fact.

The problem with trying to ascertain cause, is that when placing a soft water fish in hard water, the negative effects take time to become symptomatic, are not immediately obvious, so are often misdiagnosed later on as an introduced pathogen, or parasite, because the chronic effects often take a couple years to cause visible damage.

I often say that fish exposed to raised ammonia levels(high bioload) and general bad water quality tend to die prematurely, often within a year or two, due to the lowered immune system, the tipping factor often being environmental pathogen of some sort. It is a rule bound to happen and sadly I know this also from personal experience. It does not matter whether its a soft or hard water fish kept in proper/improper water hardness.

I have been testing the natural waters in Panama lately, where my wild fish are coming from, the nitrate readings have so far been non-detectable.

These habitats are generally poor on any minerals, including nitrates. They have negligible measurable TDS/conductivity.

 

[duanes]

The reason I put this in the new world cichlid section, is because I believe the most abused fish out there, is the oscar, yet because of their hardiness, they usually don't die, but become scarred up, and end up turned into LFS looking battle worn, or offered to zoos, that can't possibly take them because of the glut.
I would also assume coming not far behind are the large catfish people buy on impulse, but can't realistically keep .
When someone buys one of the Asian soft water species, (unless its Swai that can live in almost sewer like conditions) one of the soft water Anabantids, like a Chocolate gourami, you probably won't see it anywhere, because it simply dies, and rather quickly.
If only 1 or 2 inexperienced aquarists read this and hold back from putting a big fish in a puddle pf urine soup, its done its job.