4300 Gallon Plywood Build (3600+ Take 2)

[2wheelsx2]

Ah, well, if we consider the "fun" in the hobby, then we don't need to count the hours spent. However, if there are things that you are doing at aren't "fun," and there are completely manufactured solutions, then you do need to start counting the pennies of your time.

Yep, that was my point. Someone who does it for a living is always going to do it cheaper/faster than you. But where's the fun in that? Where else can I get those $200 oil changes except in my own garage?

 

[galabar]

Yep, that was my point. Someone who does it for a living is always going to do it cheaper/faster than you. But where's the fun in that? Where else can I get those $200 oil changes except in my own garage?

Ah, but you didn't include the most important part of my post; when things go from being fun to being not-so-fun. At that point, it becomes disingenuous to state that you saved X dollars. Really, the formula is: (Retail Cost) - (Your Cost) + ((Number of hours spent after it stopped being fun) x (How much your value an hour of your time))

 

[nolapete]

Let's see if I can address what you are asking without being a complete ahole. When you DIY, you don't count your time or anyone else's time in the cost to do it. You only count actual dollars spent.

The only thing that hasn't been "fun" is wrestling with this leak. It has although been educational for me and quite a number of other people, so if you consider the FREE class on building plywood tanks my tank is nearly FREE.

The outright thrill that I received to see builders like JohnG and VLDesign adopt some of my ideas is priceless! The countless number of people who have gained even the smallest amount of knowledge from this build is beyond what you can imagine. Place a value on that then come talk to me about the actual cost of my build.

Until you build a tank of your own, whatever size it is; 5 gallon to 135,000 gallon, you'll never know the sense of accomplishment that we DIY tank builders enjoy!

 

[galabar]

Let's see if I can address what you are asking without being a complete ahole. When you DIY, you don't count your time or anyone else's time in the cost to do it. You only count actual dollars spent.

The only thing that hasn't been "fun" is wrestling with this leak. It has although been educational for me and quite a number of other people, so if you consider the FREE class on building plywood tanks my tank is nearly FREE.

The outright thrill that I received to see builders like JohnG and VLDesign adopt some of my ideas is priceless! The countless number of people who have gained even the smallest amount of knowledge from this build is beyond what you can imagine. Place a value on that then come talk to me about the actual cost of my build.

Until you build a tank of your own, whatever size it is; 5 gallon to 135,000 gallon, you'll never know the sense of accomplishment that we DIY tank builders enjoy!

I certainly don't disagree with the overall sense of accomplishment. I've done my share of DIY work in relation to my various fish tanks (planted and reef) and other activities.

However, from looking back at this thread, I think maybe 3 years at this point, I can see about 1/2 (18 months?) worth of enthusiastic building and 1/2 (18 months?) worth of problems and frustration. I'm sure that the final result (and we are all pulling for you) will be great. However, I don't think a reasonable price can be put on the overall project. There were highs and lows, lost opportunities in other areas, and found opportunities (i.e. wife and baby). How do you put a price tag on all that? I wouldn't dare try.

However, you did when you mentioned that your tank "cost" $0.85/gallon. I'm only refuting that statement.

p.s. A revised formula taking into account what you said:

Cost savings of DIY project = (Retail Cost) - (Your Cost) - ((Number of hours spent after it stopped being fun) x (How much your value an hour of your time)) + (Dollar value you place on the satisfaction received from completing the project)

p.p.s. We perform these little Calculus on most of the things we do every day, either consciously or subconsciously.

 

[nolapete]

Actually, if you could actually see the real time work on this tank, it's actually more like 6 - 8 weeks of 8 hour days OR LESS man hours. You're talking to someone who is well-versed in billable hours, so if you want to go there we can. I choose not to include anyone's time in my costs, since the only reason I've worked on this tank is for fun. The frustration has been food for thought and is what fostered many of the innovations that resulted from this build.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

This version of the build actually didn't start until October 2009, whereas the original started February 2009. If you want to go by elapsed time, then more power to you, go with the original start date. That's completely ridiculous in my mind.

You completely disregarded the benefit to other people in your calculation. That far outweighs the billable hours even if you went by elapsed time rather than actual time.

There are highs and lows to any worthwhile endeavor. Sports comes to mind with simply wins and losses. Do you consider a loss a cost of playing the game or just part of it? If a loss is an expense, then a win has to have positive value as well. If nothing else, they offset each other at least by a ratio.

You need to view things as taking a road trip and enjoying the ride instead of the agony of how long it takes to get to the destination. Until you do that, everything you do is just a drudgery until you reach your goal.

I still stand that the tank has cost $0.85/gallon and there's not a thing that you can say that will refute that for me and most of the people who have followed this build.

 

[rusland005]

However, from looking back at this thread, I think maybe 3 years at this point, I can see about 1/2 (18 months?) worth of enthusiastic building and 1/2 (18 months?) worth of problems and frustration. I'm sure that the final result (and we are all pulling for you) will be great. However, I don't think a reasonable price can be put on the overall project. There were highs and lows, lost opportunities in other areas, and found opportunities (i.e. wife and baby). How do you put a price tag on all that? I wouldn't dare try.

GREAT POINT.

 

[galabar]

I still stand that the tank has cost $0.85/gallon and there's not a thing that you can say that will refute that for me and most of the people who have followed this build.

Certainly, you can define whatever price you want and it is completely relevant to you. However, I don't think you can speak for most of the people following this thread. They are all pulling for you (as am I). However, I doubt that is the price tag they would put on the project.

Indeed, if you asked, you would find numbers all over the place. Many might even make it negative (e.g. -$1.50/gallon) as they consider the thread valuable to posterity.

I've enjoyed this thread. However, to me, I don't see a savings. First, because I would value my time very highly (as does my employer). Second, I'm not sure, until you are successful, that we have learned anything yet. We don't know what has worked and what hasn't. We have no idea what the cause of your problem is. If you end up with a non-leaking tank, we can take something away from that. However, to this point, there is nothing in this thread that we can point to as a guide for how to make a tank because you haven't made a tank yet.

I don't want that to sound overly harsh. I've really enjoyed this thread, and I have confidence that, at the end of the day, it will hold water. However, to this point, we can't realy glean too much that we can take away and start building our own tanks with.

p.s. I hope we don't have to be 100% "Rah! Rah!" to participate in this thread. I'm definitely on your side, but I'm not a sycophant. However, if that is what the moderates expect, than I can pretend to be one in order to see the conclusion of this thread and not get kicked off the forum.

p.p.s I joined this forum *only* because I wanted to follow your thread, so I am very invested in seeing you come to a successful conclusion!

 

[nolapete]

I just went through the first 280 posts of this thread and found less than a week of actually work (estimate 4.5 - 5.5 days) to get most of the walls assembled except for the front window.

I beg to differ on the ability to glean anything from this build. Look at JohnG's two builds and VLDesign's latest build. Both successful and undeniably use innovations from my build.

Had I gone with my original plan to use a pond liner like my friend's 2600 gallon tank, I would have been done in under 2 weeks. I played guinea pig and experimented with Permadri, so that in itself has been the sole cause of delay.

Had Max ACR been available at the time, I'd have gone with it if for no other reason than cvermeulen pestering me about fiberglassing the tank.

Trust me, if I only wanted Rah! Rah!, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you. It has merit even though we disagree.

I'm flattered that you joined only to follow my thread. Hopefully, I haven't disappointed you.

 

[galabar]

I'm flattered that you joined only to follow my thread. Hopefully, I haven't disappointed you.

Absolutely not. I can't wait to see you sitting by that huge window, drinking a cup of coffee, with your wife sitting next to you, and your baby on your knee, while that giant gourami swims by.

 

[nolapete]

Put another coat of Permadri over the Ken fix. Only had time for one coat tonight. I'm going to try for 3 more tomorrow night with an hour wait between them to allow each to set/skin up.

Ken and I actually can't wait to don SCUBA tanks and sit at the bottom of the tank with the fish swimming around us! (Although, the picture you painted was very nice!)