Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

[tiger15]

I am just wondering for example, why are we only making a big issue with South American soft water cichlids living in hard water? What about Asian soft water fish? Why do we not hear much about them suffering water related issues when kept in hard water?

It seems to me that the popularity of the relatively large South American cichlids, combined with them often being kept in overstocked tanks, plus their aggressive and territorial nature and the habit of fish keepers of combing several aggressive fish in the same tank, could be contributing majorly to the health issues those fish tend to have.

I personally have not tested nitrates in years. I test only TDS. I pretty much do enough water changes so I don't ever get a rise between tank and tap. I consider high oxygen content as the most important parameter so I try mitigating any factors that maybe sucking up oxygen in the tank, that includes not overstocking the tanks, removing organics, keeping good surface agitation and relatively high flow, keeping pre-filters on my intakes and not using my filters as siphons, keeping plants.I keep soft water fish in hard water...I have not noticed any issues.

I'd say very few people keep their fish in water close to that of their natural habitat. Even if some think they do, they probably don't. Keeping for example fish in water with very low conductivity/TDS is very difficult, if impossible in aquariums due to the lack of buffering in the small body of water. In fact, soft water fish kept in straight RO water or water with very low conductivity lacking buffering capacity, will often have even bigger issues. In nature such waters are buffered by humic and fulvic substances. We can't replicate that in a small scale such as aquariums because the aquariums are also a dump for fish urine... If we can, it is extremely difficult and requires very good understanding of chemistry plus constant care to keep things stable. The point is, the fish will do better in slightly harder buffered water.

Also, how many cichlid keepers own a TDS meter? Having a low pH does not equate to soft, low conductivity/TDS water to which these fish are adapted. In insufficiently maintained tanks the TDS tends to rise progressively and the pH tends to drop, the water becomes acidic but not soft...., yet most people only measure nitrates...

There are only two cichlid species in Asia, and both need hard, brackish water to thrive. I have no experience with them, I doubt they will do well in soft fresh water.

Labyrinth fish are the Asian equivalent of cichlid. They are known to get HITH, and I’ve seen it in giant guarami. Most aquarium labyrinth are small fish, so you can hardly see holes, similar to seeing holes in tetras suffering from neon tetra disease. There are few labyrinth keepers besides betta, so you rarely hear anything about them.

Asian shrimp keeping is popular today. Caradina shrimp are sensitive and mandate soft water to thrive and multiply. Neocaradina shrimp can tolerate harder water. Amano shrimp, on the other hand, need brackish water to multiply.

I’m a cichlid keeper and own a tds meter for years to check water parameters. Now I use it to check when I need to do WC in my shrimp tank. Cichlid are less sensitive to tds than inverts except for breeding black water species.

 

[Coryloach]

so you rarely hear anything about them.

That's sort of what I mean, may people keep cichlids and it is quite normal we hear more health related issues with them because of their popularity.

Cichlid are less sensitive to tds than inverts except for breeding black water species.

Exactly, anecdotal experience shows that fish from mineral poor water do adapt to higher mineral concentrations. But no fish adapts to pollution, elevated ammonia turn over, high bioload, toxic spikes, high organic buildup, low oxygen, etc....

Neocaradina shrimp can tolerate harder water.

I've kept neocaridina shrimp for many years now, very successfully. I have hundreds of them and they're very prolific in my hard water. I keep them based on the same logic I keep my fish, explained above. They get large weekly water changes, unlike what one may read about them on the net. They thrive like that.

At the same time I have one very neglected shrimp tank on which I can't remember when I did a water change last. This was more experimental than intentional. It's got no more than 5 surviving shrimp in it.....Bad water quality is a killer...

P.S. I use the TDS meter to measure TDS rise as a pollution factor. So all I care about is if there is a rise. My starting point is my tap's water TDS used for water changes.

 

[duanes]

Actually 3 from Indian and Sri Lanka.
Etroplus canarensis

Etroplus suratensis

and E maculatus
But if you go by the theory that Madgascar actually broke off from India,(like I do) you accept that many of the Madagascan cichlids are much more closely tied to their Indian cousins than their geographic African proximity makes the relationship appear.
The Paretroplines share a unique hearing organ with the Etroplines.
So add the Malagasy cichlids to the Asian count, and you add at least another dozen species
Paretroplus maculatus

Paretroplus menerambo

Paretroplus dambabe

P nourisattii

Ptychochromis

The list goes on and on

 

[tiger15]

What an informative thread here. Heavy hitters coming on to educate and debate. Thank you neutrino , duanes , and RD.

I’m hoping MFK comes back. Threads like this will certainly do a lot to change the direction of the dialogue on this site. It’ll take it back to the days where everyone came on to learn something new about this hobby.

As for the topic here, I’ll weigh in with my own experiences. I’m in agreement that most tap water works for most fish. It’s funny since I’ve found wild discus to be hardier than domestics. After having mixed results with store bought domestics, I started dabbling with wilds and had much more success. My challenges always came when I became lax with canister filter maintenance as my water change schedule and stocking levels were always good. I’ve since moved away from canister filters whenever I can avoid it. It’s too easy to put off the maintenance with them. Sumps and HOB’s are much easier to regularly maintain.

Most issues arise from a weakness or gap in the maintenance regime. Either tanks are overcrowded, water changes are insufficient, filter maintenance is overlooked, fish aggression, or diet is poor.

mrrobxc has more success with soft water SA in hard water than anyone I know of. In SE Pa where he used to reside, water is hard. In southern Cal now he resides, water is harder. He never mentioned RO water, so something must be done right. One thing he does differently from most big fish keepers is that he always grows plants, which may have some unknown beneficial effects.

I have tried domescated discus for a few years and failed. I’m surprised to learn that wild discus are more hardy.

I agree that canister is an evil invention for fish keeping. Canisters incentivize procrastination of water change by hiding waste out of sight. Their closed system design is also vulnerable to anaerobic condition. Hobs and sump systems are the healthy way to go. My show 125 and 75 in the living room are filtered by multiple HOBs and I don’t mind changing filters twice a week.

 

[dan518]

Is there any evidence to suggest people with soft water coming out of there tap have a higher success rate with these fish? Or is it people using ro water that have better success, which could mean any number of trace elements found in tap water that are filterd out could be detrimental to the fish, eg copper, fluoride, iron, pesticides etc etc.

 

[RD.]

Is there any evidence to suggest people with soft water coming out of there tap have a higher success rate with these fish? Or is it people using ro water that have better success, which could mean any number of trace elements found in tap water that are filterd out could be detrimental to the fish, eg copper, fluoride, iron, pesticides etc etc.

...... or a build up of bacteria & DOC's, from overall poor husbandry.

While environmental issues have been speculated as being the cause of S. vortens outbreaks in captive fish, I don't recall ever reading any scientific data that points to hard water or higher pH values as being a trigger. According to the data in the following paper, which I have quoted numerous times over the years, most of the organisms cultivated below pH 6.0, or above pH 7.5, were suppressed or killed within 5-6 days of cultivation.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.519.4664&rep=rep1&type=pdf

 

[Coryloach]

One thing he does differently from most big fish keepers is that he always grows plants, which may have some unknown beneficial effects.

Based on my own experience and knowledge, plants play a major factor in water quality and I can't really understand why they're not implemented more in monster tanks. The benefits are not "unknown". Plants directly take up ammonia and nitrites from the water column. Their root systems are a catalyst for a diverse range of friendly bacteria which keeps the tank balanced. A planted tank has a way healthier micro-fauna than an unplanted tank. Plants produce oxygen! Oxygen is very difficult to dissolve in water and the only contributing factors are plants and surface aeration. Only with plants can one achieve full oxygen saturation in a tank. Just surface aeration is not sufficient. An overstocked, badly maintained tank, is bound to be low on oxygen, although not enough to kill the fish outright but contributes to their long term well being, e.g. sickly fish.

There are many plant options one can choose to suit their tank needs, emersed, submerged, floating plants or a combination. One needs proper plant lights for that or even an window light if the tank is placed strategically.

 

[Coryloach]

...... or a build up of bacteria & DOC's, from overall poor husbandry.

While environmental issues have been speculated as being the cause of S. vortens outbreaks in captive fish, I don't recall ever reading any scientific data that points to hard water or higher pH values as being a trigger. According to the data in the following paper, which I have quoted numerous times over the years, most of the organisms cultivated below pH 6.0, or above pH 7.5, were suppressed or killed within 5-6 days of cultivation.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.519.4664&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Just to add myself something on Hex. I've mentioned it before although I'd have to find that paper that stated it, If fish carrying spironucleus vortens are subjected to periods of non-feeding, such as because of transport or because they didn't eat in the first few days/weeks from being placed in the tank, the hex parasite can take hold. I dealt with hex on livebearers in the past and it was a mare to eradicate. I do not ever skip feedings unless I forget or I go on holidays only because I never want to deal with this again only because of that. And all my fish get a flubendazole treatment early on after purchase.

There is an old paper from PhD Charles Harrison on flubendazole. Some may have noticed how much I recommend that med as a dewormer due to its broad spectrum effect on both flat worms, round worms and protozoa. He tested it on his hexamita infested fish and suggested it eradicates the parasite, along with velvet and even ich. He of course suggested further research on it but there isn't much I have found since done on a scientific level for fish, although it has gained a lot of popularity in human trials as it also has effect on shrinking tumours... The only flubendazole that I know of specific to fish, is Kusuri Wormer Plus. The med is biodegradable and safe with fry as well.

Here is a link to Charles Harrison PhD paper for those interested: http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleArticle.pdf

Additionally, I have read that fish infected with Cryptobia iubilans can have similar symptoms to those infected by Spironucleus Vortens and it is another thing we may need to look into further as it is not treated by the common meds for Hex.

 

[Coryloach]

mrrobxc has more success with soft water SA in hard water than anyone I know of.

By the way, his are one of my favorite tanks around here. Plus he/she has an aesthetic mind, which I don't

 

[RD.]

Additionally, I have read that fish infected with Cryptobia iubilans can have similar symptoms to those infected by Spironucleus Vortens and it is another thing we may need to look into further as it is not treated by the common meds for Hex.

Somewhat yes, but in the vast majority of cases the "holes" in a fishes head, tend to be caused by S. vortens. I have not come across any literature that suggests that C. iulbilans is associated with HITH.