Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

[RD.]

Mike, it has been proven in labs, by experts in this field, that excessive dietary lipids causes fatty live disease in fish. I have been posting about this exact subject for many years, and I have read many of these scientific papers, researchers aren't making this stuff up. This is not me saying that you can't, or shouldn't feed meat to a fish, this is me saying that you used a rather poor example in beef heart.

I've been saying this for the past 20 years, and many of those who work in the field of aquatics agree - one of the most common causes of death in captive fish is related to excessive fat deposits in and around the organs. Excess fat ends up stored in various tissues, specifically the liver. Over time this can lead to the degeneration of the liver, which is more commonly referred to as "Fatty Liver Disease". Years ago I read an article which included some info from a fish parasitologist at a Canadian University. He was involved with performing autopsies on dead fish at public aquaria and the single most common cause of death he's seen since he started to do the autopsies was "fatty liver disease". Ruth Francis Floyd from the U of Florida has stated the same.

I first posted the following approx. 15-20 yrs ago on a cichlid forum where I was a mod, this quote coming from 8 yrs ago on MFK.

This is exactly the type of food that you do NOT want to be feeding a flowerhorn.

Part of the problem with FH keepers (and lots of MFK members in general) is they all want to see MAJOR growth in their monster fish, in as little time as possible. While there are many ways to achieve that goal, often times all it results in is a large obese fish, that will eventually die prematurely due to fatty liver, etc. Of course if/when that happens, most hobbyists won't have a necropsy performed to understand why their pet fish suddenly died, they will simply go out and buy another one. (sudden death syndrome anyone?)

IMO this hobby is all about patience, and measuring success in years, not weeks, or months. When it comes to feeding fish, many hobbyists make things much more complicated than they need to be.

I recently posted the following in another thread, and it might be worth repeating here. While the fish used in this study were not FH, they were cichlids, one being a carnivorous species, the other an omnivore. The same info would apply to any & all FH strains.


Feeding high protein, and especially high fat levels to adult cichlids can be a dangerous proposition, even with carnivorous species. (which flowerhorn are not)

The following exerts come from a study overseen by Dr. Ruth-Francis Floyd, a DVM, MS, and a professor at the U of FL that specializes in fish nutrition & health.

The TP diet was comprised of 52% crude protein, and 17% crude fat. The FF diet consisted of 47% crude protein, and 7% crude fat.

"The lipid-rich TP diet may be suitable for commercial production of juvenile African cichlids up to 12 weeks of age, but prolonged feeding may result in excess lipid deposition and necrosis of the liver. Feeds like the FF diet, which produced slower growth but lower lipid deposition in livers, may be more suitable as a maintenance diet for cichlids in the home aquarium."

"Fatty infiltration of the liver has also been designated "the most common metabolic disturbance and most frequent cause of death in aquarium fish"

"With prolonged feeding of a high-energy, lipid rich diet, degenerative changes of the liver and death can occur unless the diet is corrected."

Now imagine what happens to the liver of an adult CA cichlid/flowerhorn (with much lower metabolisms) when fed diets that contain excessive amounts of lipids. (fat)

The juvie H. ahli (s. fryeri) used in this study faired much better being a carnivore, but it still showed a lipid accumulation in the hepatocytes. (<50%) The P. socolofi had extensive lipid accumulation when fed this TP diet.

This study came about after some cichlid farms in south FL suffered from some large mortalities in both 1998 & 1999. When the dead fish were examined they showed fatty infiltration of the liver, heavy vacuolation, and severe necrosis of the liver, pancreas, and spleen.

It was suggested to the farms that they replace ther feeds with one that had a lower lipid content (less than 10%) and supplement the feed with a vitamin premix. Clinical signs in the affected farms were resolved after implementation of these recommendations.

Fat that is not entirely utilized by a fish as an immediate energy source (which is the main role of fat in a fishes diet) does not equate to all of the excess going directly to growth of a nuchal hump. Most of that excess fat will be deposited in & around the fishes organs, which long term will degrade the health of the fish, and in many cases cause premature death. When I read about the numerous cases of SDS (sudden & unexplained death) in FH I often wonder how many of these cases involved overfeeding, and/or an excess of lipids (fat) in the diet. Unfortunately the vast majority of hobbyists do not have a necropsy performed when their prized fish suddenly dies prematurely, they simply replace it with another fish.

I've been promoting sound husbandry practices (such as limiting a cichlids fat intake) for many years, long before any of the specialty FH foods were on the market. None of this comes as news to me.


While I agree that there is no need to pay some of the ridiculous prices for FH specialty foods, if all one is wanting is a cheap low cost generic farm feed (which IMO is exactly what this is) you would be FAR better off in buying direct from a feed mill, or your local hardware store. It will work out to approx $1 a pound, but will come with the same problems as the food listed by Bud. (excess protein, excess crude fat)

HTH

 

[RD.]

BTW Mike, if you followed that previous link |I posted regarding discus diets, you should have also read where years ago I was told on simply discus, where at that time beefheart was fed by the vast majority (probably still is) that the AVERAGE lifespan of a captive discus, was 4-5 years. At the time (approx. 10-15 yrs ago) I felt that was pathetic, and I still do.

 

[RD.]

I guess the full link didn't come through on the previous page,

Homemade Food for South American Cichlids

I don't think Al et al on Simply Discus believed me. lol Um, no. Any diet for juvies other than beefheart is viewed with suspicion on that forum.

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

Post # 37

Al Sabetta's goals in fishkeeping, and mine, are polar opposites. But yes, I made him aware of that study 7 years ago. I was largely ignored by Al and the masses on Simply.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?73086-quot-Beefheart-quot-under-the-microscope/page6

I made the mistake of posting on various forums with the same ID, an ID that back at that time was attached to New Life International. I was a Canadian distributor back then, and didn't hide that fact, or apologize for it. Many on Simply couldn't seem to see past that, including Al. At one point Al Pm'd me basically chastising me for a comment I made on the forum, while being attacked by his pals, and then threatened my membership. I told him to go piss up a rope, and never looked back. A decision that I have never regretted.

I posted the following in another thread, on this same topic.

There are no studies in favor of feeding beef heart. Even the studies that support the use of a high protein diet, only state such for JUVENILE discus. Al was talking out of his arse about quantifiable effects on the fishes health and longevity, when we know for fact that excess fat in a fishes diet can lead to necrosis of hepatocytes, atrophy of the pancreas, etc. Clearly that affects the longevity of a fish. The real testament on Simply regarding BH was around the same time period when there was a thread on the average age of discus owned on Simply - which Al told me was 4-5 years. I was stunned at the time. Cichlids that only live 4-5 yrs on average. WTF? Even in that BH thread some people were poo-pooing fish over 6-7 yrs of age, as those fish would be on the decline so whatev. (see comment below) There are cichlids over 15 yrs of age, owned by folks on this forum, that have eaten pellets almost exclusively their entire life. Almost every fish that I have ever owned has lived what would be considered a normal or typical lifespan, and all have been raised on pellet food. This is not shocking news for anyone that has kept their fish for the long term.

If a cichlids (Discus, or whatever species) natural lifespan is 10 yrs, or more, and the average fish owned by a collective group is dead by the age of 4-5 (so said Al on Simply) then maybe those folks ought to be taking a closer look at what they are doing, as in feeding beefheart to a fish that as an adult (in the wild) does not consume a diet that is even remotely close to mammal meat.

As stated in that discussion, in Heiko Bleher's Discus book vol 1. it gives a full description of wild Discus nutrition and states that the 5 most common items eaten by discus in the wild are; detritus, vegetable matter, algae & micro algae, aquatic invertebrates, terrestrial & arboreal arthropods. That does not equate to the high protein mammal meat based diets that are utilized by certain hobbyists. I even suggested back then, as I would now, If one feels the need to supplement the diet, I would think that insects such as ants, spiders, cricket parts, mealworms, etc would be far better suited to their digestive system, than foods such as beefheart.



I was also quick to note that in Al's last post, nowhere did I see one of his goals in keeping discus, to be their longevity. His attitude apparently mirrored others on that forum.

"And nowadays, I doubt anyone here will keep any of their Discus to old age. There are too many different colors and strains out there, and everyone wants them. People are always selling off, or trading on here, their Discus, to get new ones. New strains. New colors. I doubt any will die of old age...neglect? yes."

 

[RD.]

A paper that I read several years ago ........

https://www.civilica.com/PdfExport-ICAAHMD01_078=Study-of-the-causes-of-aAnal-prolapse-in-Flower-Horn-Fish.pdf

That wasn't the link that I found it through years ago, but the abstract is pretty straightforward. Too much beef, not enough plant matter = an increase in bacterial and/or protozoal infections within the digestion system, which leads to anal prolapse in this omnivorous cichlid.


I could go on all day, Mike, but I think you get the point.

 

[neutrino]

"A good fish diet, you may be surprised to hear, contains no beef heart" --Marc Weiss. Weiss makes his own food, at one time fed beef heart, but then he went to a seafood based diet. In explaining why he cites a US fisheries study published in 1929.

Wattley is supposed to have done an experiment, reported in an issue of TFH I haven't paid to read, where he compared side by side feed of beef heart and dry fish food and he found growth was the same on both diets, but in the beef heart group, he found undigested bits of beef in their feces. Bingo, there's a partial reason some discus keepers find it necessary to do so many water changes. Yet Wattley (or his company) still feeds beef heart, apparently.

I kept discus myself, grew out several generations of them, all grew fast and to a nice size. I had some bruisers. I never fed beef heart to any fish, even in the 60s, when supposedly everyone fed beef heart. Not me, back then I fed flakes, brine shrimp, occasionally black worms, the same as I did for discus in the early 90s (except that at that time I found they grew faster on pellets than flakes). Two other things I didn't do for discus-- daily water changes (I did 1-2 times a week) and all the medicating and deworming some people think is normal for discus. It's not. Tank size, tank ecology, clean water, and how you feed them makes a difference in how easy or difficult they are to care for.

I suspect the divide over beef heart will always be there. It does make fish grow. BUT-- you don't need it to make fish grow. I have no ambitions or illusions of converting beef heart devotees. BUT-- what I know absolutely is it's not necessary. Based on how I kept discus compared to what I see many discus keepers go through, all it accomplishes imo is to make discus keeping more labor intensive.

 

[CANAMONSTER]

Mike, it has been proven in labs, by experts in this field, that excessive dietary lipids causes fatty live disease in fish. I have been posting about this exact subject for many years, and I have read many of these scientific papers, researchers aren't making this stuff up. This is not me saying that you can't, or shouldn't feed meat to a fish, this is me saying that you used a rather poor example in beef heart.

I've been saying this for the past 20 years, and many of those who work in the field of aquatics agree - one of the most common causes of death in captive fish is related to excessive fat deposits in and around the organs. Excess fat ends up stored in various tissues, specifically the liver. Over time this can lead to the degeneration of the liver, which is more commonly referred to as "Fatty Liver Disease". Years ago I read an article which included some info from a fish parasitologist at a Canadian University. He was involved with performing autopsies on dead fish at public aquaria and the single most common cause of death he's seen since he started to do the autopsies was "fatty liver disease". Ruth Francis Floyd from the U of Florida has stated the same.

I first posted the following approx. 15-20 yrs ago on a cichlid forum where I was a mod, this quote coming from 8 yrs ago on MFK.

Looks like they actually don't really know to much why fatty liver happens or what exactly causes it, to much carbs and sugars or fat.... So I would like to see that study you reference and see what the fish diets were. If you ask me why fish have fatty liver I'll just use some logic here and say , over feeding high carb content and chemical preservatives in pellets will do the trick! Preservatives damage the the liver. Well if a liver is damaged guess what it can't do its job properly.
I'm not saying beef heart is the best but it is definitely not the worst.

Ill give it to NLS and Northfin ( now because they use naturox) for having good ingredients but every other fish feed is garbage and can't not compare even remotely close to a the nutritional benefits of a good beef heart mix.

Journal of Investigative Medicine

Journal of Investigative Medicine

jim.bmj.com

 

[CANAMONSTER]

"A good fish diet, you may be surprised to hear, contains no beef heart" --Marc Weiss. Weiss makes his own food, at one time fed beef heart, but then he went to a seafood based diet. In explaining why he cites a US fisheries study published in 1929.

Wattley is supposed to have done an experiment, reported in an issue of TFH I haven't paid to read, where he compared side by side feed of beef heart and dry fish food and he found growth was the same on both diets, but in the beef heart group, he found undigested bits of beef in their feces. Bingo, there's a partial reason some discus keepers find it necessary to do so many water changes. Yet Wattley (or his company) still feeds beef heart, apparently.

I kept discus myself, grew out several generations of them, all grew fast and to a nice size. I had some bruisers. I never fed beef heart to any fish, even in the 60s, when supposedly everyone fed beef heart. Not me, back then I fed flakes, brine shrimp, occasionally black worms, the same as I did for discus in the early 90s (except that at that time I found they grew faster on pellets than flakes). Two other things I didn't do for discus-- daily water changes (I did 1-2 times a week) and all the medicating and deworming some people think is normal for discus. It's not. Tank size, tank ecology, clean water, and how you feed them makes a difference in how easy or difficult they are to care for.

I suspect the divide over beef heart will always be there. It does make fish grow. BUT-- you don't need it to make fish grow. I have no ambitions or illusions of converting beef heart devotees. BUT-- what I know absolutely is it's not necessary. Based on how I kept discus compared to what I see many discus keepers go through, all it accomplishes imo is to make discus keeping more labor intensive.

Not to many people favor Mark Weiss but I agree with with him very much! Again sorry if I made it seem that I think beef heart is the best food. I simply am trying to state that high protein diet is best for fish.

 

[RD.]

High carbs/sugars convert to fat. Same end result as excessive dietary fat. As I said, with finfish, plenty of data out there for anyone that wants to take the time to read it.

Effects of Varying Dietary Protein and Lipid Levels on Growth Performance and Hepatocyte Changes in Juvenile African Cichlids (Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli) | Request PDF

Request PDF | Effects of Varying Dietary Protein and Lipid Levels on Growth Performance and Hepatocyte Changes in Juvenile African Cichlids (Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli) | Abstract African cichlids are popular species produced commercially in South Florida for the aquarium...

www.researchgate.net

Effects of Varying Dietary Protein and Lipid Levels on Growth Performance and Hepatocyte Changes in Juvenile African Cichlids (Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli)
Article in Journal of the World Aquaculture Society 37(1):48-59 · March 2006 

Abstract African cichlids are popular species produced commercially in South Florida for the aquarium trade. In their natural habitat, African cichlids show variations in feeding behavior, ranging from strict herbivory to omnivory to carnivory, and they are therefore excellent model species for nutrition work. The effects of varying dietary protein and lipid levels on the growth performance and hepatocyte changes of juvenile ornamental African cichlids were compared between Pseudotropheus socolofi, an omnivore, and Haplochromis ahli, a carnivore. It was hypothesized that the omnivore would have a lower protein requirement and show a higher incidence and severity of liver pathology when fed a high-fat diet than the carnivore. Four diets were formulated using two crude protein (CP) levels (35–36% and 55–56% CP) and two lipid levels (8–10% and 19–20%), with resulting gross energy levels between 4000 and 5300 kcal/kg. P.socolofi (0.89 g, 4.1 cm) and H.ahli (2.1 g, 5.7 cm) were fed three times daily at 10% body weight per day (BW/d) for the first 3 wk, then 6% BW/d for the remaining 5 wks. Survival was greater than 86% for all treatments. Average weight gain of carnivorous H.ahli did not differ among the four diets and was greater than that of P.socolofi. P.socolofi grew larger when fed a high-protein/high-lipid diet compared to a high-protein/low-lipid diet or both the low-protein diets. However, pathological changes to the liver were observed in P.socolofi fed a diet high in both protein and lipid. Carnivorous H.ahli tolerated higher levels of dietary lipid than the omnivorous P.socolofi. Both species showed significant growth, with no pathological changes occurring in the liver when they were fed a diet of 36% CP, 10% lipid, and 4000 kcal/kg gross energy.

 

[RD.]

More here ......

UF Digital Collections

ufdc.ufl.edu

 

[neutrino]

I've read several UF articles, but hadn't read that particular paper before. Beyond the experimentation, a conclusion I'd drawn a long time ago stands out to me. I don't see why we should approach our fish like fish farming, "intensive" husbandry prioritizing growth subject to the economy of "production". Long term health is more important to me. Some hobbyists are so anxious for maximum growth and size, certain species in particular, like discus or 'monster' fish where some are anxious for fast growth or to produce trophy sizes. The whole "power feeding" notion seems silly to me. Just feed a healthy diet and don't overfeed.

Ime if you feed your fish to be healthy, keep water clean, and don't squash them into an overly small tank, they also grow well. In many species you get the occasional super fish, larger than average. Ime you'll often get one or two or a handful of these in each spawn of many species. You might want to have these as your future breeders. That, and having healthy fish is good enough for me. I'm not trying to set growth or size records. Someone else can have a different philosophy, but that's mine.