Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

[Coryloach]

Just for the record, I also found some interesting anecdotal evidence.

http://www.texascichlid.org/archives/2004-articles/cryptobiathe-silent-menace-2/

And for those with a microscope, although I gather it is not easy seeing cryptobia on a live fish:

 

[RD.]

I found some non anecdotal evidence. See above.

 

[Coryloach]

Thanks RD.

What I am suggesting is that not only one organism is involved. It is possible the fish has both cryptobia and spironucleus in the "incurable" with metro cases. ...Also, flagellates rob the fish of nutrients. So, yeah, perhaps HITH is both flagellate and nutrient related, or both...Water quality does trigger hex and cryptobia outbreaks and good water quality can prevent the spread of the outbreak but it will definitely not eradicate the root cuase.

As you may have noticed, treating with metro is very often unsuccessful, many examples on this forum. Water changes may stabilise the fish...until the next stress event...

Again, from what I have seen over the years most fish with HITH symptoms will still actively eat,

I don't think this is true to be honest.

My fish in fact ate till the moment they died(Survivor platies lived up to 5 years) and there are plenty of cases where fish having hex go off their food. Going off food is very much associated with hex in fact. I am not sure where you're getting that info.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm077

Very generic info on that link. There's way more information about cryptobia.

 

[Coryloach]

I found some non anecdotal evidence. See above.

So you think flagellates don't rob the fish of nutrients and don't interfere with their development? In fact, flagellates, worms, all do...And they're stressors. Combine that with poor water quality....and poor diet in fact..

P.S.

The anecdotal evidence I provided was referring to the fish being tested in a lab....
Note the clinical signs described by the author?

 

[RD.]

LOL, Cory it seems that you are getting the very general term "Hexamita" confused HITH. They are not always one in the same, and "Hexamita" was not the focus of this discussion.

I don't think this is true to be honest.

Of course it's true. Fish with HITH, unless very severe later stages, almost always eat. S. vortens does not always manifest itself in the same way, across the board, in every fish, and every species. A simple case of HITH in an Oscar, created by poor water quality, is not the same as an African cichlid, that has bloated up from a systemic infection that leads to organ failure. Could some cases be caused from cryptobia - YES, I believe that I have stated such already. lol What part of this aren't you getting? HITH is not caused by cryptobia, and unless you have proof that it does .……...

Not HEXAMITA, but HITH, as in HOLES IN THE HEAD.

BTW - the person in the vids posted above, is a DVM.

I don't see any point in taking this any further, at least not for me.
Good luck.

 

[Coryloach]

Not HEXAMITA, but HITH, as in HOLES IN THE HEAD.

You are hanging to straws RD.

I use the word hex, as it's become a common term for both HITH and HEX.

I actually happened to have read every study you've ever posted on HITH, spironucleus, etc..and more. I am not confusing anything at all...It's a matter of expression.

But yes, what I am suggesting is that with recurrent HITH or hex or whatever you want to call it, the issue could be more than one flagellate and very likely to be cryptobia.

When I had the "HEX" issue, I did not see cryptobia on the microscope. I saw spironucleus but to be honest I am now not sure that's what I saw.....

For the untrained eye like mine at the time, who knows what I saw....As I said, metro did not work for me and in fact you did suggest to me a few years back that my fish may have had mycobacterium(although survivors lived to full life spans)

As per the study I posted, the granulomas can be caused by both cryptobia and mycobacterium and in all cases spironucleus was also present...

Wasting can be caused by spironucleus,cryptobia, mycobacterium, worms, etc...Clinical signs are not easy to distinguish...

Spironucleus video...very similar to cryptobia for the , considering they're both flagellates

 

[Coryloach]

A simple case of HITH in an Oscar, created by poor water quality, is not the same as an African cichlid, that has bloated up from a systemic infection that leads to organ failure.

In fact, based on scientific studies, Spironucleus has been found in cichlids with HITH and the suggestion is that HITH happens when the flagellate starts spreading further than the gut...so HITH, scientifically based, is a severe case of spironucleus infection...As flagellates rob the fish of nutrients, some HITH cases can in fact be based on pure water quality but the spread of spironucleus from the gut to other organs and other fish in fact is also stress and water quality based.
One will not know which is which. If no microscope is available I'd consider HITH to be flagellate (and water quality related).

On the bloat, spironucleus and cryptobia can also cause bloat...dropsy, etc..Symptoms are not always the same...

As for anecdotal experience, water quality remedy is anecdotal. Scientifically not proven to work for either HITH, or spironucleus vortens or for cryptobia on that matter...

All I am trying to suggest is when dealing with a possible spironucleus vortens infection to treat with either dimtetridazole or Aminonitrothiazole as it will tackle both cryptobia iubilans and spironucleus vortens. Metro does not.

I am not suggesting cryptobia causes HITH and I don't think I ever said that but that more than one organism is involved in bad cases where spironucleus is suspected.

 

[RD.]

Not hanging on to straws amigo, I don't generally use, general terms, or common names, unless I make it obvious as to what I am discussing. Even with fish, I prefer Latin names over trade names, and there's a reason for that. Less confusion for the masses, simply a FAR more accurate way to describe things. The current science agrees, even though many DVM's still use these out dated terms, doesn't make them accurate, or even correct.


HITH is a symptom, not a disease. If you read my previous posts you would already know that, not all cases of HITH are caused by Hexamita/S. vortens or cryptobia. Slow down, and take the time to actually read & absorb what I am saying.

In fact, based on scientific studies, Spironucleus has been found in cichlids with HITH and the suggestion is that HITH happens when the flagellate starts spreading further than the gut...so HITH, scientifically based, is a severe case of spironucleus infection...

LMAO, if you have read everything that I have posted over the years, Cory, then you would or at least should understand that none of what you are posting is news to me. But at the same time, a bacterial infection can also be the underlying cause of HITH, as in the video I posted above, where no S. vortens or any other flagellates were found to be present, in a fecal smear, or a site scraping. By the timing of your response back to me, and your post above, you clearly didn't watch the vids that I posted. Not all cases of HITH are caused by "Hexamita", S. vortens, or cryptobia.

Now before you start calling me Frank, I think that I will exit stage left. lol

 

[Coryloach]

I think we happened to say the same thing...So I agree, conversation is over.

P.S.

I have seen that video, not today though.

HITH is a symptom, not a disease.

Exactly.

 

[neutrino]

My total experience with HITH is exactly one fish ever, mild case, caught early and easily cured, so I can hardly add to a discussion on it. But I found the DVM videos interesting, watching a professional at work. Among the points I noticed, I get two takeaways. HITH can have more than one cause and it's possible to heal HITH with proper treatment. I've often seen people say otherwise and have to conclude this must be based on lack of expertise. An amateur may succeed in arresting the disease without the diagnostic expertise and, therefore, a comprehensive enough approach to help the fish heal-- so they conclude the 'scars' can't be healed.

An example of how our naivete sometimes leads us to misdirected conclusions and why most of us are still somewhere on the learning curve, even if we're pretty experienced.