I had a similar issue with overdosing last week, albeit on a much smaller scale in my 75g where I have a bunch of Mbuna that I’ve kept for years. In my ignorance I didn’t know about Prime’s impact on oxygen levels, so I dosed fairly liberally after a big water change. I also filled directly from an outside spicket (which I connect my python hose to), which for some reason seems to have lower oxygen levels than other locations in my house. After every water change all the fish come out of the rocks and seem to gasp for air for a bit, and then all is fine after a couple minutes. I normally don’t mind because it’s a fun chance to count everyone.
Anyways, this most recent time it was obvious that something had gone wrong (presumably bc I used far too much Prime). Within minutes I noticed fish swimming wildly, or slowly just floating to corners. Kinda like I was watching them suffocate. Pretty horrible to watch as a fish keeper. Unluckily, I had a filter blockage at the same time, so nothing breaking the water but a small air stone. I quickly started trying to break the water with my hand for a couple minutes, added a back-up HOB filter, then cleaned my canister out and got it up and running again. Luckily, I noticed it so all my adult fish survived, but even in that short time I lost 8 or so adolescents. Pretty disheartening, but no doubt in my mind that had I not noticed it (totally normal by the way as I normally just shift focus to changing water in other tanks in other rooms), I know I would have lost everybody.
Sorry for long post, but thought it might be helpful to compare situations to see if you noticed any similarities and to know you’re not alone.
Thanks for sharing man. IMO from everything I've gone over, researched, and discussed with fellow hobbyist, I personally think it was a chemical overdose depleting oxygen in the tank. I think we all understand, this is all speculation, and no one can definitively say what happened here. I appreciate everyone's input. What happened in your scenario sounds extremely similar to what happened to me. Moving forward, my bud is helping me setup a new water filtration system in the house. It's a 1 couple stage filitration setup that removes everything in the water before I even put the water into the tank. So no more chemicals at all...
what if we are looking at this from the wrong veiw point. in world war 2 aerospace engineers in the army wanted to add armor to planes returning. he wanted to increase armor in areas that planes were returning with bullet holes. but someone spoke up and said, places that have holes are where the plane can get hit and still return. its where planes do not have bullet holes that need more armor. its those spots that probably get hit and dont return.
that being said maybe the Prime or safe wasnt mixed well and did not do its job when added after the water change. did you use an older bottle. was it a new bottle? its not uncommonn for these big companies to have bad batches. just a thought.
It was a brand new bottle I've used a couple months at this point.
Years ago when I was caring for fish the talk was making sure the water temperature during the water change was within 1 degree of each other. If you had a drastic water temperature difference and changed a lot of water then you could have thrown the fish into thermal shock including any beneficial bacteria in the sump. Killing off the bacteria in the sump could explain the cloudiness in the water also if you are changing out a lot of water you are defiantly changing the chemistry of the water. All of this combined could be enough to kill off the fish.
I did change more than normally so it is possible the temp difference was a bit different than normal wc's I do, but not to an extreme level IMO.
Good points made here. The fact the tank had elevated ammonia afterwards could suggest the bio filter was compromised, perhaps shocked during the water change, particularly if it was a large wc and particularly if the conditioner dosage was off. Could habe at least been a contributing factor to what happened here.
So the tank is currently reading 0 ammonia, 1.0 nitrites, and about 15 nitrates. I believe the situation was an oxygen issue with overdosing, the cloudliness was an algae bloom from a mini cycle happening from some, but not all the bb colony dying off, and the tank is now clear. This is what I think happened. This weekend I'm going to get the cycle back on track and the plan is to start over and learn from the mistake. I'm setting up an entire new filtration system in the house that purifies the water before I even put it into the tanks, so no chemicals required, and minimal carbon and a few other replaceable cartridges I'll need to replace every like, 12-18 months. I'll provide more details on this system if anyone is interested, once I have it all up and running.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
This most definitely would not have been caused from Safe, or the Fritz products. Not at the dosage amounts that you posted.
I have been using Safe for many years, at much higher doses, with numerous products similar to Fritz line of bacteria, at the same time, and at levels FAR exceeding what you used. Not even small fry have ever had any issues. While both can consume 02, not at those levels. Safe is simply a more economical dry product, vs Prime. Both are reducing agents, so in extreme overdose cases, they can certainly deplete 02 levels, once all the chlorine or chloramine has been reduced. But again, not at the levels you posted.
I would consider the hose as being #1 potential. If it’s not designed for potable drinking water, then it’s no bueno in my books. Many of todays Made in China hoses come lined with various anti fungal, mold inhibiting chemicals that are not fish friendly. Sorry for the loss.
Well, when running over every possible scenario, I do think this was an oxygen level issue with overdosing chems. But like I mentioned above, everyone's opinion (including mine) are simply hypothetical and we'll really never know. All I can do is move on and try to be even more cautious in the future. I personally had no idea these chemicals and products remove oxygen at all from water.
Thanks for the condolences man.
BTW…….. perhaps I missed it, but does your tap water get treated with chlorine, or chloramine, and at what ppm residual does it leave your tap. You may have in fact under-dosed the Safe, for such a large water change? Keep in mind Seachem is only ball parking their recommended dosage rate, based on some massive overgeneralization of disinfectant rates around the world.
I could be wrong, but doesn't all city water get treated with either chlorine or chloramine? It has to be conditioned with something. I actually tested the tap water the other day and it had low traces of ammonia (which would attribute to the chlorine/chloramine treatment), 0 nitrites, and 0-5 nitrates. (very low reading)
Jon M
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First, that's terrible what happened to your fish, sorry.
Something you said caught my attention. On the potential of contamination. The guy who used your hose bib after the paint job, could he have been wearing gloves with solvent/thinner that could have gotten on the threads? Or even some substance on his own hose bib? Just a thought. Stranger things have happened.
Thanks man. I mean, sure it's possible, but IMO much more inlikely than adressing the other two things in this scenario that I did that I normally do not do during water changes.
From the evidence, I believe a toxic contaminant got into the hose you used to refill your tank and it killed most of your fish. I don’t think your chemicals had anything to do with this tragedy. I strongly recommend dedicating a quality hose to your fish tanks in the future and do not ever let anyone else “borrow it” for any purpose in the future. For this same reason I have dedicated hoses, siphons and 🪣 buckets exclusively for my fish tanks. Sorry for your loss, but I think this practice will ensure this never happens to you again. Also, that is one hardy Oscar you have…
Possible. I think the overdosing with chems I used (that I normally do not use and never have issues) is much more likely than something randomly getting into a hose that was disconnected for 24-48 hours. But like I've mentioned quite a few times that's just my opinion. I did not let anyone "borrow" my hose, as I mentioned, they used their own hose, mine was disconnected so that they were able to hook their own up. Thanks for the condolences man. I appreciate it. Ya, as ****ty as it is we learn from these mistakes. I only know of velvet fish disease from losing my old Oscar Iago, and his fellow SD shoal and no always have a bottle of cupramine under the tank. Ya, and he's doing fine in the 240. Honestly dude, I was gonna have to leave him in there for a while while I restocked the 560 since the restock would be much smaller fish till they grew out, and now I'm thinking about changing my plans to make that 240 an african cichlid tank, and thinking I'll leave the Oscar in there and get 2-3 more to put in there with him and have it be a purist tank for solely the Oscars, or maybe a few Oscar and a few smaller cichlids that reside in the same place in the wild as them?
Got your email. Sorry to hear this Jon. I too don't believe in your LFS friend's explanation but one thing I agree with - our hobby is risky, our pets are on life support 24/7/364. Lots of things can and do go wrong. A lot of problems one can prevent with much thinking about the safest practices. The list can be long of what can go wrong and how to make sure they don't.
One thing that's suspiciously missing is the pH measure and its stability. Peers report a pH crash. IDK if such things wipe out tanks, I've never had that.
Other than the sudden change in pH that could shock the fish irreversibly, I don't see a likely smoking gun. The hose, the sabotage, the cats, the fumes, the authorities working on the tap water, the chemicals, the bad batch, unwashed hands, all seem highly unlikely, particularly in view of other tanks unaffected.
Weird things do happen. Have you or your gf sprayed any aerosol cleaner chemicals in the tank's vicinity, while cleaning house, of the tank, or around the tank? But that wouldn't explain the coincidence with the WC.
BTW, one common type of hand sanitizer turns out deadly to fish, not the isopropanol based one, but the other! ... I can find the thread on this.
You have to figure out why only one tank was wiped and was cloudy and not others. Something must be or must have been different about this tank or about how you changed your water in it. Was it the first to receive the hosed water? Than this might strengthen the hose hypothesis a bit.
Hey Viktor. Thanks for the condolences. I didn't check the pH because frankly, I've never payed any attention to such perimeters. Do these really have any factor in freshwater tanks?.... The first thing I look at is the obvious stuff, the stuff I did that I normally do not do when I did water changes in the past and had no problems. The chems, the water amount, the fact that the hose was disconnected for a short time. None of those things have happened. I know all things need to be asked to cover all basis but I don't consider us "rookie" fishkeepers at this point, and I don't willy nilly have cleaning supplies and lotions and things near my tanks. Ya so this tank was the only tank that a. got a much higher dose of safe, b. got fritz 360, and c. was refilled with the hose and not sink pythons. I do believe it was an overdose issue and oxygen, and this would also explain the partial bb die off and the nitrites and mini cycle. I'm going to get it all back on track and hopefully restock this weekend and move on.
Really a terrible incident but I'll learn from it and moving forward when I get my new filtration system setup I won't be using any chemicals to treat any of the water.
Here's a tribute piece we did Tuesday for my boy Gacy, biggest CK I've ever raised and one of my favorite fish to date.... RIP bud. Sorry for my bonehead fatal missteps.
