What's the asian way and what's the westerners way?
And what does he living in a western country has to do how he wants to rear a fish?
96 x 30 x 24 Tank and Arowana Species
- Thread starter The-Almighty-Zugs
- Start date
What's the asian way and what's the westerners way?
And what does he living in a western country has to do how he wants to rear a fish?
Zugs. Take the info you get and that you may choose to ignore and live your life buddy. Again good luck. I truly wish you the absolute best. I have Zero true experience with arowana so all the years of fish keeping (40+) and reading/watch videos/ research not to mention having one of the best lfs in the country less the an hour from me backed by multiple professors from one of the best colleges in the nation are completely useless coming from me. I bow out to the greater hands on knowledge of others. All the best.
Lol, you've been on MFK (and likewise probably many Singaporean & Chinese forums as well) how many years now -- and you really don't know the answer to esp. that first question??
Again, note I referred to 'generalities' not every single fish keeper, there are of course exceptions -- but it's absolutely no revelation that fish keepers in Asia generally are more amenable to keeping monster fish in more cramped tanks (either overly stocked tanks or just too small of tanks). If you want me to elucidate further, it comes down to differences of culture, living space and also ethics as relates to fish/animals in general. If you don't believe me just go to the 2Pac?... or Too PACKed?!! thread in the Photo Lounge and ask yourself where are a vast majority of those Too PACKEd tanks from -- in Asian or Western countries?? It's a no brainer lol.
In fact we can see a similar thing with treatment of dogs here -- there's so many homeless street dogs in Thailand it isn't funny, it's a huge problem and again it comes down to cultural and ethical differences which I won't go into further due to it could touch on TOS prohibited subjects.
But if you need another concrete example, just go to most any Singaporean based Aro forum and you'll see peeps left and right advising 5'-6' X 24" tanks are fine (even long term) for Asian Arowana. Not in my book lol. And most Western fish keepers experienced with Arowana -- again there are exceptions -- would be advising 7'-8' X 30"-36" for an adult Asian Arowana, even bigger for a Silver. It's really that simple dude and if you truly can't see this difference in (general) fish keeping practices between East & West yourself, I really don't know what else to say. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink...
Umm it would help if you (and Galantspeedz) clarified exactly which fish you are referring to and how many of each? But if you're talking about a community tank based around an Asian Arowana and SD as you seem inclined toward, I personally would not go less than 30" if not 36" and I think most monster fish keepers would agree with this (except maybe those from Asia, most of whom grew up in and currently live in much smaller apartments or houses than most Westerners). OP if you want people to enable you with a smaller tank for an Aro community, just keep hanging out on the Asian fish forums, then you'll hear exactly what you want to hear, lol.
You've already been advised by a number of people that keeping an Asian Arowana in a 24" in community tank represents a high chance for problems (Aro will feel cramped and will increase the chances it's stressed (health problems, attacking other fish) or jumps out (death problems). Some would also argue that having many active tank mates in a too shallow tank increases the chance of drop eye, as the Aro will be concerned with and constantly checking out what's right below it, and so close. With a higher tank and more distance between the swim zones, they would argue there is less chance of drop eye developing. Whether this is always true or not is a question, but definitely something to consider.
So if you want to increase the risks mentioned above with your proposed 24" high Aro community set up, (let alone with an expensive fish like an Asian Arowana), then that's your choice and your pocketbook, but just like all of us and our tank decisions, you'll have to live with the consequences.
Anyway I just hope all of the same enablers are there to help and console our totally new to aquarium keeping OP when he inevitably has problems later if he does indeed go with 24" Asian Aro community tank -- and then posts another onslot of threads/questions (that unfortunately led to Dloks' frustration and ensuing banishment) -- some others will likely not be, except perhaps to say "Sorry I told you so but you chose another route."
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Well said Barrett, unfortunelty I suspect that like everything else it will be ignored by the OP. This is for anyone else that one day comes along and reads this thread.
I have seen bettas by the thousands kept in glass vases & jars, red devils raised in 30 gallon tanks, oscars in 40 gallons, you name it. That's not just not ideal. But I have seen it. I don't think that at this point there is much that I haven't seen.
I never said that someone can't comm an Asian aro in a 24" high tank, I just wouldn't advise it to anyone, let alone someone who clearly doesn't have the slightest clue what he is doing. And I have also spent a great deal of time on forums such as Arofanatics back when it was in in it's prime, along with others. Big deal. Lots of idiots out there in fish land doing idiotic things. Check back with most a few yrs down the road for an update, then let's see how it all played out. lol Not all aros do well in comm tanks, and the tighter the fit the more difficult it becomes. And as Barrett stated, many people still believe that drop eye can in part be due to always focussing the eyes in an unnatural position - down.
And by the same token, it's ok to ignore dietary differences because, well, who cares about the SD's? They are to most aro keepers nothing more than an ornament in an aro tank. According to the OP just feed one floating pellets, and the other sinking pellets. lol Yeah, for sure.
Not all Asian aros will take to pellets, some that do will only eat so many, so other foods have to be fed. Some aros will eat krill, others won't. Some will eat tilapia, then won't. Some owners will get so frustrated they will just throw their arms up in defeat and feed superworms, forever. Some just shrimp, forever. Shall I go on?
So while your aro ignores his high protein pellets, your SD's will be scarfing them down like a fat kid eating M&M's. And when you toss fresh seafood in, same reaction. Over time how do you reckon that will affect the health of your SD's, a fish that by design converts to a more herbivorous diet as it matures? It makes about as much sense as feeding a diet that is high in plant matter, to an aro, a fish that can't produce enough amylase enzyme to break down large amounts of carbs/starch.
As someone else said previously if all you want is someone to agree with your mindset, it won't be difficult to do. A 24" height is far from ideal when attempting to comm an Asian aro, but there are plenty of fools to be found in this hobby.
I agree with almost everything that you have said, but the comment above is a huge stretch of the truth. Asian aros are drama queens, not every last one of them, but a large portion of them. See dietary issues above. It's not just about converting them to other foods, it's them dictating to you what they are going to eat, that day, week, or month. With a young fish this can become very frustrating, even to those with many years of fish keeping under their belt. I have seen adult aros go months without eating, unless superworms were offered.
There are many things that one has to be prepared for when keeping an Asian aro, dietary challenges is just one of them.
As stated previously, I am no expert, but I suspect that I have personally handled, fed, and cared, for more Asian aros than most posting here. At one time not only caring for all of the aros in that comm tank vid that I previously posted, something that most here will never see the likes of in person, let alone interact with, but also scores of young aros freshly imported from Singapore. I did this a number of times, with many different imports of varying sizes and colors. BBXB, GBXB, Reds, etc. I was there when they landed at the airport, and unboxed each & every fish with the importer in his fish room. I have also followed another friend of mines Asian comm tanks (plural) over many years, the three of us pretty much lived in each others fish rooms. I have also taken care of his tanks, and his fish, while he is away on trips. In total, maybe 100K or more worth of Asian aros over the years that I have cared for at some point or another.
Not jars, not silvers.
Asian aros.
Am I qualified enough to comment now?
I have seen bettas by the thousands kept in glass vases & jars, red devils raised in 30 gallon tanks, oscars in 40 gallons, you name it. That's not just not ideal. But I have seen it. I don't think that at this point there is much that I haven't seen.
I never said that someone can't comm an Asian aro in a 24" high tank, I just wouldn't advise it to anyone, let alone someone who clearly doesn't have the slightest clue what he is doing. And I have also spent a great deal of time on forums such as Arofanatics back when it was in in it's prime, along with others. Big deal. Lots of idiots out there in fish land doing idiotic things. Check back with most a few yrs down the road for an update, then let's see how it all played out. lol Not all aros do well in comm tanks, and the tighter the fit the more difficult it becomes. And as Barrett stated, many people still believe that drop eye can in part be due to always focussing the eyes in an unnatural position - down.
And by the same token, it's ok to ignore dietary differences because, well, who cares about the SD's? They are to most aro keepers nothing more than an ornament in an aro tank. According to the OP just feed one floating pellets, and the other sinking pellets. lol Yeah, for sure.
Not all Asian aros will take to pellets, some that do will only eat so many, so other foods have to be fed. Some aros will eat krill, others won't. Some will eat tilapia, then won't. Some owners will get so frustrated they will just throw their arms up in defeat and feed superworms, forever. Some just shrimp, forever. Shall I go on?
So while your aro ignores his high protein pellets, your SD's will be scarfing them down like a fat kid eating M&M's. And when you toss fresh seafood in, same reaction. Over time how do you reckon that will affect the health of your SD's, a fish that by design converts to a more herbivorous diet as it matures? It makes about as much sense as feeding a diet that is high in plant matter, to an aro, a fish that can't produce enough amylase enzyme to break down large amounts of carbs/starch.
As someone else said previously if all you want is someone to agree with your mindset, it won't be difficult to do. A 24" height is far from ideal when attempting to comm an Asian aro, but there are plenty of fools to be found in this hobby.
I agree with almost everything that you have said, but the comment above is a huge stretch of the truth. Asian aros are drama queens, not every last one of them, but a large portion of them. See dietary issues above. It's not just about converting them to other foods, it's them dictating to you what they are going to eat, that day, week, or month. With a young fish this can become very frustrating, even to those with many years of fish keeping under their belt. I have seen adult aros go months without eating, unless superworms were offered.
There are many things that one has to be prepared for when keeping an Asian aro, dietary challenges is just one of them.
As stated previously, I am no expert, but I suspect that I have personally handled, fed, and cared, for more Asian aros than most posting here. At one time not only caring for all of the aros in that comm tank vid that I previously posted, something that most here will never see the likes of in person, let alone interact with, but also scores of young aros freshly imported from Singapore. I did this a number of times, with many different imports of varying sizes and colors. BBXB, GBXB, Reds, etc. I was there when they landed at the airport, and unboxed each & every fish with the importer in his fish room. I have also followed another friend of mines Asian comm tanks (plural) over many years, the three of us pretty much lived in each others fish rooms. I have also taken care of his tanks, and his fish, while he is away on trips. In total, maybe 100K or more worth of Asian aros over the years that I have cared for at some point or another.
Not jars, not silvers.
Asian aros.
Am I qualified enough to comment now?
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Every morning I wake up... this thread has 2 or 3 more pages of disagreements. This is the most controversial threads I have seen thus far haha hell even people who say they are done wrighting in the thread cant wait to come back for more?
Everyone has there own idea of what's right and wrong... zugs will undoubtedly make his decisions now more than ever based on his own choice as hes gotten every question answered 3 different ways...
Is the answers hes looking for somewhere in between?
Just because this guy says this is the right way, or that guy says it's the right way is it really the 100% the right way? Man what a confusing bunch... in a previous thread asked about what's one mistake you made when starting fish keeping I made a post about wishing I started with a bigger tank... and I stick with that all the way...
In this thread recently posted
This youtuber... named Brian dahlberg (maybe wrong spelling) who has been breeding large cichlids for some time now with much success starts the video off with a 210 gallon 7 footer... stocked with what looks like to me a 2 foot silver arow..a large male juvi mota a midas and clown loaches... they look pretty happy in there... is it the best size tank? Is it the best tank mates? Is he keeping the silver forever? Who knows but the fish look healthy and happy for now...
I've had fish I scratched my head over... how do I get it off live foods? Why does this fish not like that fish?... the lfs told me it would work! YouTube videos say this or that.... everyone needs their own experience what works for them... all fish have their own personalities... in the end... as long as the fish end up being healthy and happy... meaning you may need to rehome them... that's all that matters.
The best advice you've gotten zugs through this confusing thread of godly fishkeepers and "scientists" is to maybe not spend 1000 plus dollars on an asian arow... because when you may or may not havto find it a new better home because the fish you have thrown in the tank with it are being attacked or are attacking the arow... or you freak out for weeks and weeks because it's not eating... or the thing has an extremely skittish personality and wants to launch out of your tank.. your gonna havto find someone to pay x amount of money for the arow or you wont want to get rid of it and that takes time.. maybe too much time before it's too late.. get inexpensive fish first... **** get a silver arow if you must... atleast that way rehomeing wont be as big of an issue.
Everyone has there own idea of what's right and wrong... zugs will undoubtedly make his decisions now more than ever based on his own choice as hes gotten every question answered 3 different ways...
Is the answers hes looking for somewhere in between?
Just because this guy says this is the right way, or that guy says it's the right way is it really the 100% the right way? Man what a confusing bunch... in a previous thread asked about what's one mistake you made when starting fish keeping I made a post about wishing I started with a bigger tank... and I stick with that all the way...
In this thread recently posted
I've had fish I scratched my head over... how do I get it off live foods? Why does this fish not like that fish?... the lfs told me it would work! YouTube videos say this or that.... everyone needs their own experience what works for them... all fish have their own personalities... in the end... as long as the fish end up being healthy and happy... meaning you may need to rehome them... that's all that matters.
The best advice you've gotten zugs through this confusing thread of godly fishkeepers and "scientists" is to maybe not spend 1000 plus dollars on an asian arow... because when you may or may not havto find it a new better home because the fish you have thrown in the tank with it are being attacked or are attacking the arow... or you freak out for weeks and weeks because it's not eating... or the thing has an extremely skittish personality and wants to launch out of your tank.. your gonna havto find someone to pay x amount of money for the arow or you wont want to get rid of it and that takes time.. maybe too much time before it's too late.. get inexpensive fish first... **** get a silver arow if you must... atleast that way rehomeing wont be as big of an issue.
There is no 100% right or wrong way in this hobby, but there definitely is a sensible & humane approach, and then there is the damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead approach. I'm not perfect, I have killed fish, as have people like Viktor, and I am sure many others here, but when you combine our experiences you have several decades worth of fish keeping. Viktor has hands on experience with aros, in large tanks, I have hands on experience with Asian aros, Barrett has hands on experience with Asian aros, and we are all saying that the OP's approach is not the way to go. Even Galantz has stated that a 24" tall tank is not ideal for a comm tank, only that he has seen it done. I post in the hopes that others can learn from my mistakes, as I'm sure the others do.
Nils, you of all people should understand how complicated a comm tank can be. Look what happened to your new jar.
So now your barbs are skinned alive, and the new jar goes to another home, with a bunch of scales peeled off, in a country where all we now have is clean water and salt at our disposal. I told Matt last weekend that I felt what you did was IMO reckless (I might have said stupid?) but now I know where you got the idea - youtube. I hate youtube for this reason, most videos simply show a snapshot in time - never the end result. I'm not going to applaud anyone for showing me a tank that worked for a few weeks, or months. Any rookie can pull that off. And this is not to say that I haven't done stupid things, I have.
And while I agree that everyone needs to create their own experiences, and that every fish has its own personality, there are some things that it doesn't take God or a scientist to figure out. I also didn't see the OP asking - "what will work for now?"
Comm tanks can complicated, even with species that behaviourally get along just fine. Something as simple as getting the proper amount (or type) of food to each group of fish can sometimes be a real challenge. I know this, and understand it, from experience. In fact I just recently posted about this to another newish member. It's probably not what he wanted to hear, but the info was 100% valid. Take it or leave it - damn the torpedoes …..
BTW - I don't know what part of Canada the OP lives, but overall adult silver aros do not have a great resale value, nor a high demand. Not when an 8" juvie can be had for $40. I see people trying to sell them for various prices, but with Asian aro prices now relatively low (compared to years past) I doubt that many get anywhere near what they are asking for semi adult silvers.
Honestly the only thing that I find confusing about all the comments posted in this thread, is those comments that have been made by those that have no idea what they are talking about.
Nils, you of all people should understand how complicated a comm tank can be. Look what happened to your new jar.
Midas and RTM journey
Dont know if anyone really cares to see but I'm gonna post this thread anyways as I beleive these 2 young cichlids have alot of potential, my final tank... no more changes... hadto rehome alot of fish when I took down the tanks and tried hard to keep my favourites but ended up with only my first...
www.monsterfishkeepers.com
So now your barbs are skinned alive, and the new jar goes to another home, with a bunch of scales peeled off, in a country where all we now have is clean water and salt at our disposal. I told Matt last weekend that I felt what you did was IMO reckless (I might have said stupid?) but now I know where you got the idea - youtube. I hate youtube for this reason, most videos simply show a snapshot in time - never the end result. I'm not going to applaud anyone for showing me a tank that worked for a few weeks, or months. Any rookie can pull that off. And this is not to say that I haven't done stupid things, I have.
And while I agree that everyone needs to create their own experiences, and that every fish has its own personality, there are some things that it doesn't take God or a scientist to figure out. I also didn't see the OP asking - "what will work for now?"
Comm tanks can complicated, even with species that behaviourally get along just fine. Something as simple as getting the proper amount (or type) of food to each group of fish can sometimes be a real challenge. I know this, and understand it, from experience. In fact I just recently posted about this to another newish member. It's probably not what he wanted to hear, but the info was 100% valid. Take it or leave it - damn the torpedoes …..
BTW - I don't know what part of Canada the OP lives, but overall adult silver aros do not have a great resale value, nor a high demand. Not when an 8" juvie can be had for $40. I see people trying to sell them for various prices, but with Asian aro prices now relatively low (compared to years past) I doubt that many get anywhere near what they are asking for semi adult silvers.
Honestly the only thing that I find confusing about all the comments posted in this thread, is those comments that have been made by those that have no idea what they are talking about.
Ya I agree it was stupid.. I cant disagree there, I should have known better...hell I was even told by you not to mess with the current setup lol
the jar wasnt my own purchase and I didnt get an idea from youtube, it was a freind who had bought him thinking it could fit in a 90 gallon till he got a bigger tank like I had mentioned in the thread... I figured it may work in my 210 for a while... obviously it didnt so it's now rehomed and I had the loss of life not my freind.
I just tried to help out thinking my tank would have a better chance of holding it than his 90 with an oscar picking on it so Imo i did what i thought was right at the time.. again it's an experience I've been put through and learned from and may be able to pass on to others even though there will always be someone to disagree... I know a comm tank is complicated.... and it CAN work with species that dont always fit the bill and I dont beleive every youtube video posted is just captured in the right moment to fool the audience although that probably does happen from time to time..
Also just to note I am not one to get butthurt over a bit of back and forth debate so pls never take anything I say as insult... I think this thread has actually been a learning experience for more than just the OP but as a noob aquariest it must be confusing as all hell... there has been so many disagreements here it's not even funny... maybe OP should just create a bran new thread once he gets his tank ... one thread where he can ask one question at a time lol
You can see what you see but I am pretty sure overcrowding of tank does not only applies to asia countries.
If you had noticed, I used the word not ideal. Its TS harping about you saying it can't be done, not me lol
For me, it will depends on the temperament of the aro over time.
If you have a very aggressive aro even 30" or 40" may not be enough. Vice versa for a docile aro.
The reason I decided not to reply twentyleagues is simple, in his mind he has formed an opinion on what an aro requires and how an aro behaves and there is no way to change it unless he is able to own one and experience it himself. It has nothing to do with qualifications.
For dietary requirements, it is based on the TS is able to provide what the aro requires, similar to his decision to go for 300g as his first tank, that he will be able to maintain it.
Not sure what's wrong with aro dictating what food it wants. Just give the aro what he wants, if pellets are required for more nutrition just gutload the live food or if frozen food then put the pellets into the frozen food. Why is there a fixation on feeding only pellets.
And beside the difficulty of converting it to a food of the owner's choice( which I already mentioned and quoted by you)and water change, both of which applies to all fishes.
What other traits or requirements, aka drama queens, it exhibits that make them more difficult to rear as compared to all other tropical fishes.
