Aquarium Sump Calculator

[Jgray152]

Rivermud, you came from Cichlid-Forum didn't you? I appriciate your comment and here is my reply. I hope we can keep this is civil as possible as your raise good questions to which are on many minds and I will clarify. I am working on a document which has an "introduction" to the ASC and also Definitions and Explanations. The Explanations will tell you exactly how the calculator uses each value to calculate the sump size.

First, minimum to me is a bit "unsafe". This calculator will give you sump sizes based on way more variables then you think. It has an adjustable safty margin which for example if set to 10 gallons, you will have a rough minimum of 10 gallons or more of extra volume to after the sump has filled up after the pump shuts off.

The Additional Volume I may just remove because it is not exactly needed and making the "Additional Volume" calculate correctly with all other aspects seems to be challenging, but I will still work on it.

It was just another feature I decided to put in because because people may want the sump to hold 50 gallons of water while its running but still have enough enough room for the tank water.

Many members can't figure out how many gallons of water the sump will hold at a certain water level. Let alone figuring out if that specifc water level is safe to use if the pump shuts down. The ASC makes choosing a sump size based on YOUR specific needs a lot easier.

You CAN have the ASC calculate a "bare minimum" sump size which is not safe, or you can have it calculate an "optimum" size, or a "overkill" size.

Another reason this calc. is so safe to use is because many think of a 40 gallon sump, as a 40 gallon sump no matter what the dimensions are. This is not true at all. a 10" water level is not the same in 2 40 gallon sump with different foot prints, one will hold more water than the other which could effect the safety of your decision. This calculator takes the physical dimensions of the sump into consideration.

Also, this calcualtor is programed with only standard sump sizes in its database. Which is another reason why its so safe to use. I have used some which calculated the gallon sump in tenths of a gallon. Basically those calcs would come up with a sump size of 30.7 gallons. I don't really trust that at all, Especially since they don't take the dimensions into consideration and don't give you ANY dimensions. My calc does both. It will give you the dimensions of the sump it chose.

The biological volume is defaulted to a "higher" than normal value. This is also adjustable so the user can allow the calculator to calculate for MORE or LESS bio media and pic a sump ALSO based on this.

The definition of optimal in the case of aquaria follows along the lines of prevention. Basically overkill in most cases is a solid practice because we do not want to ever have the chance of being unprepared. In the instance of having "too much filtration" I can honestly say there is no such thing unless you cannot support the bactirial colony and have a devastating die off of the colony. Having extra canisters for example allows you to rotate your cleaning while not killing your entire colony since you still have canisters running with thriving colonies. A sump is also useful for a whole lot more than biological and to a lesser extent mechanical filtration. Being a place for pumps, heaters, plants, fry, injured fish, or whatever else you can think of, makes them highly useful.

You won't have a "devestating die off" if you cn't support the bacteria colony. This is only possible is there is something in the water to which kills all your bacteria. Your bio load will only support a certain amount of bacteria. Which means, if you have a sump with 10 liters of media and just for the hell of it, I will say ALL the media is covered with bacteria, and then you add another 50 liters of media, all that is going to happen is there will be no bacteria near the end of the media. The bacteria may get "spread" out more which will only cause some of the bacteria to die "IF" more have cultivated on the additional media. You will not have a "die off" as you say.

There is such thing as TOO MUCH filtration. To much means, its more than you need. You can have all the bio media in the world but you will only have enough that will be supported by the bio load available in your tank.

Earlier an example was given earlier about overfilling the sump. (edit) Filling a sump in the most intelligent manner definitely involves physical checking and doing a power off run. If you simply trust mathmatics for this I can guarantee you will eventually get bit.

So according to you, you will just "pick out" a sump, not accounting for any dimensions at all and try a pump shut down to see if this tank is big enough? Not very safe. Math in this aspect can give you the correct sump size, if you wan't to go bigger, you can If you don't use math, you may do a "test run" and be needing a lot of towels.

You have since modified your calculator to now add more volume with theh addition of a new field to enter the extra gallonage into. This pretty much (edit) directly conflicts with your original goal as well as contradicting your statement about oversized sumps.

Not contradicting, just another usful feature for those that want to use it. I am making this calc as "universal" as possible.

First, if you know how many gallons you want your sump to be you don't need the calculator.

And how are you going to find this out without doing math? Guess how large it should be?

Second, if you build everything to the minimum you are bound to get hurt by it.

Read what I said in the beginning of this post.

Third, this calculator will be used by people who need more than the minimum and it will be called gospel and add yet another myth to the hooby which has WAY to many in it in the first place.

Read the begining again.

This calculator will not be taken as "Gospel" and is not a "myth". This is to rule out "myths".

Would you use other online sump calculators? I have seen other people reccomend a few other sump calculators and no one said anything about those, maybe because they were on a "reputable" site, yet they take about 30% of variables into consideration that my calc does.

 

[Rivermud]

Instead of doing a point by point reply I will use your other threads as my reply.

Posted by Jgray as Aquatester55 on Cichlid-Forum.com
"I have made a calculator coded through MS Excel 97-2003 format.

This calculator I call the Aquarium Sump Calculator or ASC. It helps you calculate the minimum size sump for your tank through dimensions and many automated calculations.

The reason I made this calculator is because I see all to often, people recommending these HUGE sumps, such as 150 gal sump for a 240 gal tank. WAAAAYYYY over kill.

So I hope the calculator helps."

Continuing
"Quote:
Not way overkill at all, except in the very limited terms of what is required to prevent flooding in the event of power failure. In fact up to a limit, the bigger the sump the better.


I run into this statement all the time. The fact of the matter is, canisters with much smaller volumes handle tanks the same size a sump is on that was told to be built with over 5 times the bio media.

Example. 240 gallon aquarium. 3 Eheim 2080s. 36 liters / 900 GPH. The rule of thumb I have heard is 1/3 tank volume capacity. This calculates out to a 80 gallon sump. An 80 gallon sump can hold over 300 liters of bio media. This is why I say....OVER KILL. WAY OVER KILL!

Some people may want to have a HUGE sump just because. There is really no reason for it but peace of mind I guess.

When new members come to ask about what size sump, they get told these enormous sump numbers. I wan't to limit this as much as possible.

When you tell someone this, you are telling them that sumps are horrible at bio filtration.

Quote:
There's nothing wrong with overkill for a sump. Those that recommend large sumps do so because it's a way to increase the volume of water in the system, not because it's the minimum size needed.


I ran into this statement as well. If you have a proper filtration setup, you don't need to increase the volume in the system. There is no need for it. I can see if you have a smaller tank, 55-75 gallon maybe with salt and you want the parameters to stay within spec longer and better, but with much larger tanks, you don't need this."

This quote from McDaphnia makes me laugh now because of your current arguements
"AquaTester55 wrote:
....I run into this statement all the time......
The reason you run into the statement all the time is because it has been well researched by professional aquarists working in public aquariums, and because it "holds water" for the experienced aquarium hobbyist too. There are reasons aplenty not to make a sump the ideal size -- space, energy consumption, cost, access to other parts of the life support system for the tank, etc. Sometimes those real world reasons dictate no sump at all.

You have been working on a tool to determine a minimum size sump based on a few of those variables, not the ideal size which has already been determined as a total of 5000 gallons in the system, something that in home aquarium terms translates to a more relevant "bigger is better".

The older calculator is probably better at determining the minimum size to prevent flooding than yours, because it's based on the tank "footprint" not its volume."

Your reply speaks for itself
"Quote:
You have been working on a tool to determine a minimum size sump based on a few of those variables, not the ideal size which has already been determined as a total of 5000 gallons in the system, something that in home aquarium terms translates to a more relevant "bigger is better".


First, this calculator does not tell you the absolute minimum size. This will tell you the size that will fit your aquarium. Just because this calc display sizes smaller than what everyone else goes by, does not mean there is no room for error. I have designed the calculator to calculate a more than safe sump size that will filter an aquarium slightly larger.

The sump size is based, Length, Width, Height, Gallons, Bio Media Volume, beio media volume per gallon, Mechanical Volume, Continuos Sump volume, Aquarium Siphon Volume, Piping Volume, physical pump height, Overflow volume, and I will be adding more such as flow volume.

I wouldn't say its only a "few" variables. That one calculator which people seem to be using on the reef site does not take even half of those variables into consideration. Nor does anyone building a sump when they use the 1/3 rule.

This calc will also calculate above 5000 gallons.

BTW, I have never had an issue with, nor has so many others in the hobby, had issues with their aquarium's parameters due to its size with proper filtration and care.

Quote:
The reason you run into the statement all the time is because it has been well researched by professional aquarists working in public aquariums.


It may have been research, but the head loss for a 90 degree fitting has also been researched and EVERYONE on EVERY forum says you add 1ft of head for each 90* fitting.

Do you agree with that statement? Because its 100% wrong. Using the "rule" of thumb which is 1/3 the capacity is a horrible way of figuring the size. That rule is too "loose" just like the rule of thumb for the 90* fittings is too "loose".

Quote:
Larger sumps than minimum have benefits in the freshwater world as well. So, I stick by my statement 'go bigger, if you can'. I never said 'need'.

What are these benefits? I don't see them and in my many years of being in the hobby, never have seen these benefits that people don't talk about..."

This reply to you sums up a lot of the reason you get the feedback you do.
"Quote:
What are these benefits?


More stable water parameters. You essentially end up with an understocked tank.

Note the example you gave.

Quote:
The reason I made this calculator is because I see all to often, people recommending these HUGE sumps, such as 150 gal sump for a 240 gal tank. WAAAAYYYY over kill.


Wouldn't you agree that if an individual 'overstocked' a 240 gallon tank with 300 gallons worth of fish, it's
now within a 400 gallon system? That's the benefit right there. More stable water parameters and more
room for error. And in the real world, most of us push the stocking limits. And even if they behave
and don't push the stocking limits, now you've got 240 gallons worth of fish in a 400 gallon system.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, really, I'm not. I've built several and have done these calculations
partly to figure out how to get the biggest I could get in the space that I had. Water volume is very
important. I don't see how that can be argued with.

But, I admire your ability to put this together and wish you well with it. I really think that you should
market this as a minimum required sump, but asterisk it with 'bigger is always better' footnote. I
don't see that that would devalue the spreadsheet.

This is just meant as constructive feedback, so please don't take it any other way. I'll go away now "

To answer your comments regarding how to fill a sump and overfilling..
"Generally the way you determine that safe water level to avoid flooding in an off mode is to do a live test. Use a minimal amount of water to operate the system. Turn the power off. Wait. Then fill the sump up to your comfortable high level, perhaps an inch or two below the rim. Restart the system and once the water level in the sump stabilizes, mark that level and when you do water changes, refill to the mark but not over.

Water changes are one of several reasons for having as large a sump as practical. Some fish behaviors (breeding, pairing, and so on) can be interrupted by water changes and water level changes in the tank. Removing and replacing water from the sump can largely prevent that kind of disturbance to the fishes' territory. If the sump is minimal, you can't do a water change without lowering the water level in the tank, or running the pump dry. Another reason is the increase in the air/water interface, an important zone in determining carrying capacity of a system. And it is not just the biomedia that possesses colonies of beneficial bacteria. It is also the walls and floor of the tank and sump, so increasing the volume of the sump also increases those biologically active sites."

Your poor attitude and replies really begin to show their colors here
"Quote:
pretty much not being concerned with protecting the pump from running dry, flooding due to power outages, etc.

You have not read any of my posts have you? Flooding, this is the "siphon volumep Pump from running dry, this is the "Sump water level". different pumps will need different water heights depending on the plumbing and situation.

Quote:
The crazy thing about that is that the biomedia ought to be in the tower above the sump, or at least in the air space above the normal water line in the sump, and so it is displacing air, not water. Bioballs, biobales, etc. are all designed to work in the "dry" part of a wet/dry biological filtration system.

Some bio media can be in the water depending on the design, so I try to add a little margin for error with this.
Quote:
Generally the way you determine that safe water level to avoid flooding in an off mode is to do a live test. Use a minimal amount of water to operate the system. Turn the power off. Wait. Then fill the sump up to your comfortable high level, perhaps an inch or two below the rim. Restart the system and once the water level in the sump stabilizes, mark that level and when you do water changes, refill to the mark but not over.

This is what you do when you can't comprehend simple mathematics.

Quote:
Water changes are one of several reasons for having as large a sump as practical. Some fish behaviors (breeding, pairing, and so on) can be interrupted by water changes and water level changes in the tank. Removing and replacing water from the sump can largely prevent that kind of disturbance to the fishes' territory. If the sump is minimal, you can't do a water change without lowering the water level in the tank, or running the pump dry.

This is a special case and would need a special size sump. This is not true for all situations. There is no reason why you can't still use the calculator to determin bio volume.

You can also shut the pump off during water changes. You don't need to keep it running when doing a water change. Sump size is personal prefrence above the safe sump size.

Quote:
Another reason is the increase in the air/water interface, an important zone in determining carrying capacity of a system.

You will get more than enough surface agitation in the sump along with the output to the aquarium. You don't design a sump or aquarium system taking into consideration for the "cross section surface area" of the waters surface for oxygen exchange. This happends very easily and efficiently without use huge sumps.

Quote:
And it is not just the biomedia that possesses colonies of beneficial bacteria. It is also the walls and floor of the tank and sump

It also everything inside the aquarium. You NEVER count the size of the tank. Why? Because its not porous and holds VERY VERY VERY VERY little bacteria if any compaired to bio media. This is a BS comment.

Quote:
so increasing the volume of the sump also increases those biologically active sites.


In your mind, you will want to add as many glass/acrylic seporation walls in the sump as possible because you are counting on bacteria growing on them. You NEVER count on non porous media to cultivate bacteria."

Here, you point out (in my opinion) exactly why your calculator has problems
"Quote:
You need to factor in a lot more practical variables and put a lot less emphasis on the advertised biomedia performance claims.

There is no advertised bio performance claims. Only the amount of bio media that is "suggested". I say suggested because depending on the real world situation, you may need more be this will be rare. After all, basic calculators like mine is just programed with simple code, it doesn't have a brain and does not know what you are thinking of doing with your aquarium, so you need to think about what you really need, but this will give you a very healthy starting point if you are doing something special. "


I find it funny that your statements now have changed with the feedback from the other site to bolster an argument in one direction or another. At any rate, the reason I think this program is flawed and the reasons behind it are flawed are well stated by yourself in your previous posts. Hobbyists should use the knowledge and experience available on these forums if they need this kind of advice simply because as you so eloquently stated, in real world situations, a calculator does not have a brain and does not know what a person plans to do with their tank. There is no substitute for experience and there is not a way to calculate unknown variables without guesses or myths.

 

[Jgray152]

First, it makes no sense to post an ENTIRE THREAD from another forum here. Its very had to follow the way you posted it.

I find it funny that your statements now have changed with the feedback from the other site to bolster an argument in one direction or another

What has changed? Quote me where I contradicted my self. Also, why is it well stated by me that its flawed?

Here, you point out (in my opinion) exactly why your calculator has problems

You need to factor in a lot more practical variables and put a lot less emphasis on the advertised biomedia performance claims.

I would like to know what "other" practical variables I need to include other than the 17 I have now? The ASC using all 17, uses true or false arguments and mathematics to see if a particular sump will work, if not, it goes to the next one, if that one fails just ONE out of the 17 checks it performs, then it moves to the next one. If it checks each sump in the database and none will work according to the ASC, then it will let you know. In fact, there is more than 17 "checks" it performs, I never counted but within many "variables" there are up to 4 different checks the ASC performs. So if I had to guess (I may count eventually) there would be more than 25-30 actual checks it performs on EACH standard sump size listed in the database.

 

[Rivermud]

I apologize for the hard reading, however I'm pretty sure it stands for itself. You contradict yourself in several ways. First, you posted that it IS a minimum size calculator. You also state that sump size is a personal preference above the safe size which I must interpret as the minimum size. Yet you continue to state that it's not a minimum calculation. The practical variables are things that you cannot calculate such as bio load. you ask me to point out where you make the point that the calculator is flawed for the exact reasons you've been given. I've quoted it once but can do so again. "There is no advertised bio performance claims. Only the amount of bio media that is "suggested". I say suggested because depending on the real world situation, you may need more be this will be rare. After all, basic calculators like mine is just programed with simple code, it doesn't have a brain and does not know what you are thinking of doing with your aquarium, so you need to think about what you really need, but this will give you a very healthy starting point if you are doing something special." This statement serves to prove that in a real world situation the calculator cannot prepare for the bio load of the system as each individual system is different. You are quite correct in stating that it does not know what you are thinking of doing with your aquarium thus it is a flawed work designed to give a minimum recommendation for a preprogrammed bio load based on your opinion and the use of a specific type of bio media. Bio media is calculated by surface area not volume as you yourself have also stated which leads me to point out that calculating by volume is flawed as well. We as hobbyists want to avoid spikes of possibly harmful toxins in our tanks, that said we use overfiltration as a means to help prevent these spikes. If I feed my fish flake ood and they consume most of it in general and I do not overstock my tank I can afford to have less bio filtration. If I were to change over to say cichlids for example and feed things such as live foods or ground prepared foods I now have increased my bio load significantly. If I were to run a breeder set I would be feeding a lot of live foods to my fish while in growouts, I will be essentially extremely overstocked a lt of the time. All of these are variables your calculator cannot deal with as they change per hobbyist. It was suggested many times before to call the calculator what it is and advertise it as such but you've decided to make an arguement of it. I for one do not want things in the industry that can be cataclysmic in their effect like this calculator. You got into a name calling match with myself and basslover for testing a new product we know can fail and admitted as much, now you want to argue about a calculator that you yourself fail to understand it's flaws.

A sump takes care of water load, the bio media takes care of the bio load. A sump can be any size desired based on the needs of the aquariast, the bio media is what changes the equation. Thus the argument about sump size is really a moot point when the needs of the aquariast based on their use cannot be calculated. This is why we have discussions about bio capacity of certain media, we discuss the merits of over engineering things and the merits of having more than what is necessary to cover unforseen calamities. All of hese points you will argue against and I don't care to argue the point further. I stated my opinion and hope everyone reads the threads to see exactly what has been said. I know many share these opinions. Oh, and if I had posted the entire thread you would have seen one of the requests to remove the link from the website as it is more detrimental to the hobby than beneficial in their opinion. I happen to share it.

 

[Dr Joe]

Is this calculator going to be made available in total to MFK and it's members and the general public free of charge with no contractual obligations?

Dr Joe

.

 

[rucus]

hmmm interesting. kind of a pain though

 

[Jgray152]

Rivermud, You can leave this thread just like you had to leave it on the other forum. I left your thread, so leave mine. you have nothing good to say about this as I had nothing good to say about yours.

Your definition and my definition of "minimum" must be different. You think of it as no room for error at all, possibly overflow and no acceptable bio volume. This is not what I think of minimum as. Like I said before, you CAN calculate the minimum, you can also add any safety factor you wan't to it. Its up to YOU to allow the calculator to choose the correct sump. If you don't add enough of a safety margin, your only asking for trouble.

Bio media is measured in volume btw. The surface area is so huge on most medias out there used in wet/drys, you can NOT calculate the media amount based on SA. Can you? I bet you can't.

Also, you say that this calculator has a preprogrammed bio volume. That is INCORRECT! This number is ADJUSTABLE by the USER. It is DEFAULTED as in, the number is saved into the Excel Sheet. You can change it any time you wan't. I have to say though, the number that is entered, is "overkill" in most situations.

This calc will give you a "suggested" bio media volume. Its "suggested" and not a required amount, because of the fact that the bio load is different in each tank. This is the reason the number given for the bio volume is MORE than you need in most situations.

A sump takes care of water load, the bio media takes care of the bio load. A sump can be any size desired based on the needs of the aquariast, the bio media is what changes the equation. Thus the argument about sump size is really a moot point when the needs of the aquariast based on their use cannot be calculated.

The size sump dictates how much bio media you can have. The sump size is very important. Also, the user can even input the dimensions of their "area" for where the sump will be located and the calculator will pick out a sump size with that "added" variable.

The Aditional volume, if I keep it in design, will also be another "added" variable the calc will take into consideration.

So it CAN calculate based on the users needs.

This statement serves to prove that in a real world situation the calculator cannot prepare for the bio load of the system as each individual system is different

The calculater can prepare as long as the correct value is used. I will say this again, in MOST situations for moderatly over stocked tanks, the value given WILL be acceptable.

Is this calculator going to be made available in total to MFK and it's members and the general public free of charge with no contractual obligations?

Yes

 

[Jgray152]

hmmm interesting. kind of a pain though

What is?

 

[Pharaoh]

Seems like a lot of trouble to go through to come up with a calculator that is used for such an small purpose. Most people who build thier own sumps are building with parts that they either already have or can get relatively cheap. It would be impossible to figure in all the variables actually need to give someone a solid idea about what they are needing.

Sounds like we just need to educate people about the uses and abilities of sumps. Then let them make the decision on what they have to have for their tank.

 

[basslover34]

Seems as though it's time for me to break out my trusty quotes again

Rivermud, You can leave this thread just like you had to leave it on the other forum.

seems kind of uncalled for since your "open to hearing opinions" But We won't go there.

I left your thread, so leave mine. you have nothing good to say about this as I had nothing good to say about yours.

yet aren't you the one that claimed that it was all worth hearing?... I'm getting confused

Your definition and my definition of "minimum" must be different. You think of it as no room for error at all, possibly overflow and no acceptable bio volume. This is not what I think of minimum as.

OK ... I'll settle this...

As defined by Websters
Minimum: the least quantity assignable, admissible, or possible.

No room for error would mean that Rivermud wins!

Like I said before, you CAN calculate the minimum, you can also add any safety factor you wan't to it. Its up to YOU to allow the calculator to choose the correct sump. If you don't add enough of a safety margin, your only asking for trouble.

If I had only one word right now... it would only need to be "huh?"

You can calculate the minimum... ok... sure...you can add any safety factor you want to it... OK, It's up to YOU to allow the calculator to choose the correct sump... so the people who supposedly need this and have no clue of sump design and volumes are supposed to choose the correct sump... why do they have this thing to begin with?

Bio media is measured in volume btw. The surface area is so huge on most medias out there used in wet/drys, you can NOT calculate the media amount based on SA. Can you? I bet you can't.

Actually thats EXACTLY how it's calculated

Also, you say that this calculator has a preprogrammed bio volume. That is INCORRECT! This number is ADJUSTABLE by the USER. It is DEFAULTED as in, the number is saved into the Excel Sheet. You can change it any time you wan't. I have to say though, the number that is entered, is "overkill" in most situations.

How exactly did you come up with the numerical values assigned for Bio load...?

This calc will give you a "suggested" bio media volume. Its "suggested" and not a required amount, because of the fact that the bio load is different in each tank. This is the reason the number given for the bio volume is MORE than you need in most situations.

again I'd like to understand how you have come up with the value of "most situations"

The size sump dictates how much bio media you can have. The sump size is very important. Also, the user can even input the dimensions of their "area" for where the sump will be located and the calculator will pick out a sump size with that "added" variable.

I thought that the size of sump "suggests" how much bio media you can have... what is this thing my mother?

What happens if your calculator dictates that the area you have chosen is to small...or better yet does it dictate to me how much of each type of filtration I need aerobic bacteria vs anaerobic bacteria? prob not right?

The Aditional volume, if I keep it in design, will also be another "added" variable the calc will take into consideration.

what additional volume are you referring to... in the sump or in the space where you want to place the sump?

So it CAN calculate based on the users needs.

I have yet to see how a novice will be able to use this, I have also not seen how you are factoring in bio load growth over a usage period... I see no details as to how this "minimum" Sump is supposed to handle the cute little fishes once they are all grown up and their dookies can sink a ship...

The calculater can prepare as long as the correct value is used. I will say this again, in MOST situations for moderatly over stocked tanks, the value given WILL be acceptable.

since your saying it again i guess that means that I have to say it again ... Where do you come up with your numerical value for bio load and to say what is well stocked, over stocked, moderately over stocked, under stocked ect... I simply do not agree that you understand all the variables in place with this type of thing.

I mean read over your other thread asking What people run for their wet/dry's... your not asking the correct questions to begin with so how do you expect to receive the right answers for your process to work?

Bio loads are not 1 inch of fish per gallon of tank water... there is no way to determine these things since there are FAR to many things to consider... fish size, species, feeding habits, tank size ect... all play a HUGE role in determining what we do with our filtration

The sizes of sumps suggested you saw and claimed to be wrong, please show us some of these threads, I'm interested to see what it is that has created this ... errrrr.... program