Cold hardy cichlids?

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
Drstrangelove said:
Interesting concept, but here is why it's somewhat perturbing.


First, being adapted to cold involves changes in numerous features in a fish's anatomy including the endocrine system, respiratory system, circulatory system, digestive system, and reproductive system, just to name a few.

Second, evolution does not work by making a series of changes in everything. The changes are random. Some are beneficial, but most aren't. Just because some fish survive out of a batch does not mean anything more than they had 'some' advantage over the ones that died. The advantage may have nothing to do with being better adapted to cold, but simply being better adapted to finding food or pure dumb luck. The advantage itself might 'help' them at 65 degrees but be a horrible feature at 50 degrees. In evolution there are uncounted number of evolutionary branches that became extinct.

Third, once all these changes had finally happened, after let's say, 20,000 generations, I'm thinking that they would no longer be cichlids. They would lose the features that define the cichlid family, thus we couldn't call them that anymore.


Here is the description that defines a Cichlid:
Cichlids share a single key trait: the fusion of the lower pharyngeal bones into a single tooth-bearing structure. A complex set of muscles allows the upper and lower pharyngeal bones to be used as a second set of jaws for processing food, allowing a division of labor between the "true jaws" (mandibles) and the "pharyngeal jaws". Cichlids are efficient feeders that capture and process a very wide variety of food items. This is assumed to be one reason why they are so diverse.[SUP][4][/SUP] Cichlids vary in body shape, ranging from compressed and disc-shaped (such as Symphysodon), to triangular (such as Pterophyllum), to elongate and cylindrical (such as Crenicichla).[SUP][12][/SUP]
The features that distinguish them from the other Labroidei include:[SUP][13][/SUP]

  • A single nostril on each side of the forehead, instead of two.
  • No bony shelf below the orbit of the eye.
  • Division of the lateral line organ into two sections, one on the upper half of the flank and a second along the midline of the flank from about halfway along the body to the base of the tail (except for genera Teleogramma and Gobiocichla).
  • A distinctively shaped otolith.
  • The small intestine's left-side exit from the stomach instead of its right side as in other Labroidei.
There is no reason to believe that any (much less all) of these features would persist as the cichlids evolve to adapt to cold water. In fact, if any feature were lost, they would no longer be a cichlid. This would require us to kill any spawn that lacked any of these feartures plus to kill off any spawn had a new distinctive feature.
Click to expand...

wtf




anyways, OP I think your best bet is these chanchitos that Miguel brought up. If you can't get a hold of those maybe try some tilapia, they are fairly hardy. Let us know if you get some and they live in cold temps
 
Will do. Would be sweet to have a cichlid pond, although it may be irresponsible. As it turns out, if your pond in nj is big enough for a duck to land in or a heron to walk in, the species of fish you're keeping will eventually spread to native waterways. Seems the ducks transport eggs around by making a rough landing and stirring up eggs which then get stick to their feathers. Uncommon yes, but maybe not worth it, although I doubt these cichlids would be much of a threat to the largemouth here near cape may.


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This type of change doesn't happen in a species over a few generations, it would take a huge climate change for this to happen in nature... why create a monster?

Keep sunfish, they tolerate cool waters and can have similar personality traits to cichlids

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How would it be a monster? Does adapting to the cold turn them into viscious killers with sharp claws and crazy fangs?

It will definitely take quite a few generations, and you'll probably have to spend quite a bit of your life doing it, unless you start out with a species that is quite resilient in the first place. Or happen to chance upon a specimen with a mutation that immediately allows it to live in the cold.
 
in a sense, yes.

Have you seen what the oscars are doing to the climates where they are not native and can tolerate the temperature?

If that happened then the rest of the country would be at risk, seems like a stupid if not just a bad idea to me.
 
We would be all keeping monsters then, eh? I mean I can release my Convicts into my local creek today and they'd 'wreak havoc'. Well I guess this is MFK after all, ake we all keep monsters, but still look it could happen with any cichlid.

Though imo it doesn't matter so much if a fish invades a new system and takes over - it just means that it is more successful than the locals, and to be honest more life is always good imo. That is what happens in nature anyways, species migrate all the time, and if they're successful then they replace the indigenous species, if they're not successful then they don't, or something in between.

After all, what exactly does it matter if a different species of fish swim in our streams? We might miss the old fish there, but that'd be individuals specifically. Nature wouldn't care. For all it matters, it's a more successful species filling the niche, which is 'better' anyways.

Imo anyways. Because nature changes constantly anyways, always in a state of flux. Species come and go all the time, communities change, different species get replaced by others. Why should it matter if it changes because of us or not? After all we're constantly changing the environment all the time anyways. Might as well just accept the fact that whether caused by humans or nature, it is going to change anyways and let it be, rather than trying to preserve communities which well, would eventually change anyways, regardless of how hard we try. Imo.
 
I would love to try and do this. I was thinking about buying a couple full grown pairs of Oscars and as soon as my pond reaches 50+ degrees drop them in. Then possibly and maybe eventually have some cold-water cichlids. After winter Im going to try this with convicts. Gonna buy a couple my fry as well and see what they can do. I say convicts because of their hardiness. I already have approval from my mom and her boyfriend. He said if I could get p bass to live in the pond year round he'd buy me all the stuff I'd need to do it. I will experiment with this and the odds of it happening are very slim. I'm going to keep my current. Batch of convict fry and breed them to some of the other ones Ive been mixing in with petstore lines and see how many I can make. If all goes well, I will possibly have about 1000 convict fry. So maybe I can make this work. If not I'll breed the Rest off

-Andrew
 
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