Dainichi vs NLS. Let's have a real discussion on which is best!

[RD.]

Hey Steve,

I don't eat clay, and neither do my fish.

The main binding agent in all NLS formulas is wheat flour.

To the best of my knowledge the only cichlid food made in the world that includes clay, is Dainichi.

 

[Staszek]

Hey Steve,

I don't eat clay, and neither do my fish.

The main binding agent in all NLS formulas is wheat flour.

To the best of my knowledge the only cichlid food made in the world that includes clay, is Dainichi.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Knowdafish]

I listened to the information that was given out at Dianichis booth at a (ACA?) fish convention. Dianichis' logic is that African Cichlids ingest small amounts of clay/sand/dirt when eating off the bottom and rocks. According to them this provides the fish with necessary fiber and nutrients, and won't cause bloating. Just the 2 cents that I heard from them.

 

[RD.]

I listened to the information that was given out at Dianichis booth at a (ACA?) fish convention. Dianichis' logic is that African Cichlids ingest small amounts of clay/sand/dirt when eating off the bottom and rocks. According to them this provides the fish with necessary fiber and nutrients, and won't cause bloating. Just the 2 cents that I heard from them.

Sand perhaps, but I don't think you'll find too many African cichlids swimming about the lake with a wad of clay in their gut.

 

[cchhcc]

Sand perhaps, but I don't think you'll find too many African cichlids swimming about the lake with a wad of clay in their gut.

.....and if that ingesting clay thing is so important, why haven't SA eartheater keepers devoted lots of time to it?

It makes sense anecdotally, but beyond that I am very, very skeptical of Dainichi's claims in that regard.

 

[RD.]

IMHO it doesn't make any sense at all, and again, is based on the Koi industry, not African cichlids.

Previously posted by myself on another forum .......





Calcium montmorillonite clay & the 60 mineral compounds ......


This logic or theory (I don't believe there are any scientific papers on the subject of feeding clay to African cichlids) originates with mud/clay bottomed Koi ponds in Japan, and the belief by many Koi breeders that mud lined ponds produce better Koi than cement ponds. This logic is based on the belief that the natural mineral content found in mud enhances the fishes color & overal health, as do the natural feedstuffs found in a mud bottomed pond. With the fish feed costing over half the total costs of running a Koi farm, this would also translate into overall operation savings, espectially if organic & inorganic fertilisers are added to the pond (such a chicken droppings) to maximize the natural feedstuffs found in the pond.



I don't believe that the idea of the adsorption properties of clay ever played into this concept in the early days of breeding Koi, but is more of a recent event since the promotion & sale of this clay by health gurus over the past 25 years or so. While there are scores of vendors selling clay for the use in Koi ponds, I certainly don't see many freshwater or marine people jumping on the clay bandwagon.


While adding trace mineral elements to tap water that's void in certain minerals may be beneficial to some fish, a high quality food will contain an ample amount of these trace elements & minerals in the food itself. If for whatever reason one is still concerned about this, an easy fix would be to add something as simple as a teaspoon or two of a natural sea salt to your tank with each water change.

As an example ...........

Analysis: Coarse Grey Sea Salt Chloride: 51%; Sodium: 32%; Water from crystalization: 7%; Sulfur: 1.12%; Zinc: .87%; Magnesium: .50%; Iron: .38%; Potassium: .26%;Manganese: .026%; Copper: .018%; Calcium: .012%; Silicon: .011%; Micro-Elements: Carbon: .034%; Strontium: .009%; Boron: .004%; Hydrogen: .003%; Fluorine: .001%; Nitrogen: .0008%; Argon: .0005%; Lithium: .0002%; Rubidium: .00014%; Phosphorus: .000112%; Iodine: .00007%; Barium: .00002%; Molybdenum: .000012%; Nickel: .000008%; Arsenic: .0000037%; Uranium: .0000038%; Vanadium: .0000024%; Tin: .0000009%; Cobalt: .00000045%; Antimony: .00000035%; Silver: .00000032%; Krypton: .00000024%; Chromium: .0000002%; Mercury: .0000002%; Neon: .00000012%; Cadmium: .000000112%; Selenium: .0000001%; Germanium: .00000007%; Xenon: .00000006%; Scandium: .00000005%; Gallium: .000000035%; Zirconium: .00000003%; Lead: .000000026%; Bismuth: .000000024%; Niobium: .000000023%; Thalium: .000000022%; Gold: .000000019%; Pico-traces of: Helium; Lanthanum; Neodymium; Thorium; Cerium; Cesium; Terbium; Yttrium; Dysprosium; Erbium; Ytterbium; Hafnium; Gadolinium; Prasodymium; Beryllium; Samarium; Holmium; Lutecium; Tantalum; Thulium; Europium; Tungsten; Protactinium.

If my count is correct, I counted a total of 71 minerals & trace elements. If I really felt the need, which I do not, I could buy a bag of natural sea salt for $20 or less, and at a teaspoon per water change it would probably last me into the next decade.


As far as clay being used to neutralize metabolic toxins, exactly what toxins would those be?

"Aflatoxicosis is now rare in the rainbow trout industry due to strict regulations enforced by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for aflatoxin screening in oilseeds, corn and other feed ingredients." (Juli-Anne Royes Russo and Roy P.E. Yanong - Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida)

Feed mills based in the USA use highly regulated certified sampling and analysis methods to guarantee quality and purity. In 1997 the US Food and Drug Administration mandated that all fish processors develop and implement Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point (HACCP) plans. HACCP plans identify and control potential hazards throughout food processing, from receiving ingredients, to their distribution, and their use.

In other words, at the manufacturing stage, the chances of fish food that is manufactured in the USA, with quality inspected USA based raw ingredients, containing mycotoxins, is slim to none, especially if that feed does not contain corn, cottonseed, or peanut meal.

Also .....

"During storage mold growth and mycotoxin formation can be controlled successfully by controlling moisture content of the feed. If the moisture content is below 12%, molds become metabolically inactive, and no mycotoxins are produced." (Peter Spring and Daniel F. Fegan - Alltech Inc.)





Is using clay in fish food really a good idea?



"Due to these earlier findings, a variety of other common clay and zeolitic minerals are now being added to feeds as aflatoxin binders. Unfortunately, many of these binders due to their interaction with nutrients and other important feedborne chemicals may be nonselective in their action and may pose significant hidden risks." (Abdel-Wahhab et al., 2005).


This has always been something that I've been concerned about; if Montmorillonite Clay has such high adsorption properties, how does one know that non-toxic substances (such as essential nutrients & minerals) are also not being adsorbed?

The following comment was made by an MD who is actually very pro montmorillonite clay, yet he too warns about the potential of clay absorbing items of nutritional value, such as vitamins, along with any potential toxins.
http://www.cfsdoc.org/bentonite.htm

"It is important not to take any nutritional supplement at the same time as the bentonite. Especially when used with psyllium, the bentonite will absorb anything of nutritional value such as herbs, friendly bacteria, and vitamins, as well as toxins, bad bacteria and parasites. Be sure to wait 1 hour after drinking a bentonite shake before taking anything nutritional."



Both science, and common sense would lead me to believe that it if one simply wants to add minerals & trace elements to their fishes environment, there are far less complex (and perhaps safer) ways to do so, such as adding a small amount of natural sea salt to their tank water.

 

[Staszek]

TerraPond - Living Clay For Ponds

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[RD.]

Exactly what I just stated, Steve.

A product marketed for Koi, and Koi ponds, with the logic being that adding clay will boost the minerals and trace elements in the pond. I just explained how one can do the same thing, and get even more minerals & trace elements than what is found in montmorillonite clay, at a fraction of the cost, AND most importantly one won't have to worry about any nutrients in the food being absorbed.

Personally speaking, between the food that I use, and my tap water, I have no need to add anything to my water, except a dechlorinator. KISS

 

[BigTim15]

i like NLS becuase i have never gotten bloat feeding it to my AFRICAN cichlids

 

[RD.]

While I understand that the word "bloat" strikes fear into the heart of many cichlid hobbyists, in all fairness to Dainichi, as well as many other brands of food, I think that it's fair to say that unless one is feeding a very low grade food, and/or overfeeding by massive amounts, bloat due to diet is a fairly rare occurrence.

I'm sure that one could find many hobbyists who feed Dainichi & have never had a single issue with bloat, just as one can find people on various forums who have blamed every make of food currently available with causing bloat in their fish. IMO bloat is a very misunderstood term used by many hobbyists, and in many cases the diet of the fish is not the problem. Human nature being what it is most people want to lay the blame somewhere (other than on their own husbandry practices) and the easiest thing to blame is the food they were using when their fish became ill.

Feeding NLS isn't a bullet-proof guarantee that your fish will never have bloat, but if they do, chances are there will be one or more series of events that caused it, and their diet won't be one of them.