Your posts are always equal to a mini novel, but ALWAYS educational Neil. You certainly know what you're talking about and you have the years of experience to back it up.RD.;4876016; said:No problem Miguel, but let's not pretend that this is going to be any kind of "test", or feed trial, because it won't be.
A proper feed trial, with proper protocol is a tad bit more involved than just feeding one fish one food, and another a different food, and then attempting to make any kind of determination from such a (cough-cough) test.
You need to have some sort of methodology in place, and ideally a large group of siblings kept under exact same parameters from start to finish. In most feed trials the fish are fed to satiation, twice a day, or fed a certain percentage of their body weight, twice a day, then weighed at the end of the feed trial. (it also involves massive daily water changes)
At the end of the feed trial the test subjects need to be weighed, and ideally a necropsy is performed on each test subject so that what is taking place internally can also be examined. Specifically lipid deposition in the liver should be examined as this can play a large role in the overall long term health of the fish. A generic trout chow with high protein & fat levels will typically cause huge gains in growth, but as explained in the abstract of the study linked to below these gains can come with a serious price to the health of the fish.
http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/A03-035.1?journalCode=naja
Having read that entire paper, and viewed the slides of the test subjects livers, I can tell you that it wasn't a pretty sight. Most of these fish would have been doomed to a very early death had they been kept on the trout starter pellet diet long term. Yet, the trout starter pellets had the best results in the growth department by far. So from a hobbyist standpoint, those results would most likely lead one to believe that the trout chow diet was the "best", when in fact that diet was slowly killing the fish, even with very small juvenile fish that due to their high metabolisms actually require higher levels of protein & fat in their diet.
And this was only after 12 weeks of feeding!
BTW - that feed trial involved twenty four, 34 liter tanks, with 20 fish per tank.
Below is a classic example of how a small sampling of test subjects, kept under the exact same conditions, and fed the exact same diet, can vary greatly from one test subject to another.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392722
12-15 festae juvies, all grown out in the same tank, under the exact same conditions, yet the sizes range from 1" to 2.5-2.75". That's quite the difference. It could be due to genetics, sex, hierarchy/dominance in the tank, etc. This is what can happen when small samplings are used in a feed trial.
I'm all for people trying different types of food & feeding methods, and drawing their own conclusions as to what's best for their personal situation. Just as I accept the fact that some people may only be able to feed lower cost bulk generic food from a commercial feed mill. But at the same time I don't need to run a controlled feed trial to understand that one product is superior over the other.
Personally I have a difficult time backing companies that use raw ingredients such as corn flakes, dried bakery products, alpha starch, soybean meal, rice bran, gluten meal, MSG, etc. with some of their foods being as high as 17% ash content.
I don't need someone in a white lab coat to explain to me what's going on behind the scenes, nor do I need a feed trial performed by a non biased 3rd party accredited institution. For those that do, feel free to source such an accredited institution & post back with the results. It's not like such studies haven't alrready taken place, you just won't find the results posted for public review.
Hikari vs. NLS
- Thread starter Biggfeast
- Start date
If I had to use only one food it would be NLS. Ive raised my Red Devil (Avatar) on it and Im very happy with the results. It is difficult at times to convert fish to NLS but I believe the results are worth the effort.
I also want to thank RD for helping to educate me on fish nutrition. I read his posts and then research on my own and have learned a lot from the information made available. I know he takes a lot of heat sometimes for his continued efforts to provide this information to us (Ive given him some heat on occasion myself ) but he always answers with facts, often the same questions over and over again. Hes been attacked and insulted, I dont know how many times and always handles himself with dignity. So from me, thanks.
I also want to thank RD for helping to educate me on fish nutrition. I read his posts and then research on my own and have learned a lot from the information made available. I know he takes a lot of heat sometimes for his continued efforts to provide this information to us (Ive given him some heat on occasion myself ) but he always answers with facts, often the same questions over and over again. Hes been attacked and insulted, I dont know how many times and always handles himself with dignity. So from me, thanks.
This debate will go on and on for ever. The majority of folks on here have had great results with both foods. So its really hard to say in the long run who is right. I believe there is no wrong or right answer. What works for one does not always work for others if you take great care of your fish and start off with good quality fish,you will end up with great fish if you put in the time and effort it takes to raise them well. In the wild no fish has either nls or hikari its variety. Thats the key to great colors and growth. if you feed a fish just one kind of food(no matter what brand)they will not reach their full potential. I myself love hikari and will not use to many other brands,but i will never just feed pellets,i mix up their diet with alot of other things,veggies,fresh fish,shrimps ,zuchinni,peas,grapes,earthworms,meal worms ,hikari pellets etc. I will say thats the key to your fish reaching its full potential. NO ONE FOOD CAN GIVE YOUR FISH ALL THE NUTRITION THEY NEED!!!!!!!!! i dont care who makes it.
Never tried NLS, but honestly if I were to spend that kind of money then I'd buy frozen fortified packs. It doesn't have to be Hikari frozen neither. But I have used Hikari and on different occasions and different fishes and perhaps its the MSG in it but they LOVE it. Also I don't like sinkers because they are missed and besides I don't want my fishes trained to eat from the bottom. Its like eating dinner in your bathroom.
I look at the ingredients more and not the brand so I do a bit of mixture. Aqueon cichlid pellets are CHEAP and have Marigold and Chili powder plus more colorizers like Spirulina and natural Anaxth-whatever lol. Oh and garlic for health. I also throw in some Omega Red color pellets which has all the Omega fattys and salmon, etc. I say look for ingredients and not brand.
If Michael Jordan wore Payless shoes and You wore Nike Jordans could you beat him, NO.
Bad analogy
I look at the ingredients more and not the brand so I do a bit of mixture. Aqueon cichlid pellets are CHEAP and have Marigold and Chili powder plus more colorizers like Spirulina and natural Anaxth-whatever lol. Oh and garlic for health. I also throw in some Omega Red color pellets which has all the Omega fattys and salmon, etc. I say look for ingredients and not brand.
If Michael Jordan wore Payless shoes and You wore Nike Jordans could you beat him, NO.
Bad analogy
I don't understand the appeal of Hikari and all it's fillers. I have Moorish Idols AND lionfish eating NLS. My cichlids sport AMAZING colors.
sorry to say it but pictures wont solve it(all that means is you take really good care of your fish,beautiful by the way)
All Hikari raised fish(with variety of course)
As i said before care plays a big part(water quality,maintenance,nutrition,and quality of fish all play a part.
All Hikari raised fish(with variety of course)
As i said before care plays a big part(water quality,maintenance,nutrition,and quality of fish all play a part.
Thanks for the kind words, Tom, greatly appreciated.
Joey - most freshwater hobbyists wouldn't understand the significance of what you just stated about MI's and lionfish, but a great point for those that do. I don't know of any other commercial food on the market that has been fed to Moorish Idol's exclusively, and kept them alive for more than a few months. (if that) The creator of New Life has the longest track record in the industry that I know of with MI's (5+ yrs) but unfortunately lost that group due to an equipment disaster when a hurricane hit his facility.
Calihawk - no offense but I have a difficult time taking someone serious who only a few short weeks ago was bragging on the forums about feeding his fish Vienna sausages. If you feel that you now have this all figured out, congrats.
Buddha .......
BTW - I actually agree with you in so much as I also believe that fish require a varied & carefully balanced diet. But one doesn't need to feed 10 different individual foods to accomplish that. As an example, this morning my fish ate Antarctic Krill, Herring, Squid, Algae Meal, that consists of Seaweed, Kelp, Haematococcus pluvialis (a micro algae), several other micro-algae, Spirulina, seasoned with a dash of Garlic, and fortified with extra vitamins & minerals. I suspect that most fish in the wild would consider that a meal fit for a King.
For those of you that insist that a shotgun approach of feeding a wide variety of single foods will provide more optimum nutrition than a single dry pellet, I will ask the same question that I have been asking for years, which to date no one has ever been able to answer. Exactly what nutrients are missing from NLS, that can be found in the wide variety of foods that you feed?
Specifically, which amino acids, lipids, vitamins, or trace elements?
Anyone?
If a single food can supply all of the essential nutrients that a fish requires to truly thrive, then why must a shotgun style of feeding be utilized? I'm certainly not saying that one can't feed numerous foods to their fish, only that if a single highly digestible & highly nutritious food is used, one can also feed that food solely.
For those that would argue that this isn't possible, I can show you scores of fish that would disagree. Fish that even the most advanced fishkeepers have great difficulty keeping alive in captivity, species such as Achilles Tang, Moorish Idol, and Rock Beauty. In years past some of these species were considered "doomed in captivity", yet today many of these fish are kept successfully long term, and thrive on a single pellet food.
You can argue all you want, but the facts remain the facts. You can throw all the variety that you want to a fish such as a Moorish Idol, and even if they eat it all, most won't survive more than a few weeks or months in captivity. If that same wild fish can be converted to NLS, their survivability just went up 1000%.
If in the past a wide variety of foods seldom, if ever, kept these same species alive long term, let alone thriving, how does one argue with those results? Do we really need someone wearing a white lab coat to explain the obvious?
This hobby has come along ways over the past 50 yrs, and I personally welcome anything that can improve someone's fishkeeping experience. Today we have a multitude of filtration methods & equipment that is offered the hobbyist, controller units that can monitor & control everything from the tanks temperature, lighting (with dawn/dusk/moonlight options), pH, even email you notification of an equipment failure, and high quality aquariums that come in all shapes & sizes. Even the species now available to the average hobbyist is something that many fishkeepers only dreamed about 50 yrs ago. The science of fish nutrition has also vastly improved from what we knew 50 yrs ago, and many myths & misconceptions from the past, have now been proven to be false.
It's also becoming more clear with each passing study that many of the health disorders that we see in both freshwater and marine fish are directly related to a diet that is lacking in various nutrients.
While certain foods may in fact keep a fish that's kept in a totally non-stress environment, healthy, place that same fish under any type of stress (and there are many forms of stress that can take place in a glass cage) & that same food may fail miserably. The problem lies in the fact that when a fish does become ill, most hobbyists aren't going to be able to pin-point the exact cause, be it a lack of certain vitamins/minerals, amino acids, lipids, or an incorrect balance of these nutrients.
While a fish may not eat pellets/flakes in the wild, they do in fact consume all of the aforementioned nutrients, they are simply bundled up in a different package.
I'm 50+ yrs of age, and I've been keeping fish for a few odd years now, and I have tried every type of feeding regimen humanly possible. I can personally state that for myself, my current manner of feeding my fish is the best that I have tried or used over the years. It's not like I was born with a can of brand x in my hand.
Many years ago, I even fed Hikari.
Joey - most freshwater hobbyists wouldn't understand the significance of what you just stated about MI's and lionfish, but a great point for those that do. I don't know of any other commercial food on the market that has been fed to Moorish Idol's exclusively, and kept them alive for more than a few months. (if that) The creator of New Life has the longest track record in the industry that I know of with MI's (5+ yrs) but unfortunately lost that group due to an equipment disaster when a hurricane hit his facility.
Calihawk - no offense but I have a difficult time taking someone serious who only a few short weeks ago was bragging on the forums about feeding his fish Vienna sausages. If you feel that you now have this all figured out, congrats.
Buddha .......
No need to shout, it doesn't add more credence to your opinion.
BTW - I actually agree with you in so much as I also believe that fish require a varied & carefully balanced diet. But one doesn't need to feed 10 different individual foods to accomplish that. As an example, this morning my fish ate Antarctic Krill, Herring, Squid, Algae Meal, that consists of Seaweed, Kelp, Haematococcus pluvialis (a micro algae), several other micro-algae, Spirulina, seasoned with a dash of Garlic, and fortified with extra vitamins & minerals. I suspect that most fish in the wild would consider that a meal fit for a King.
For those of you that insist that a shotgun approach of feeding a wide variety of single foods will provide more optimum nutrition than a single dry pellet, I will ask the same question that I have been asking for years, which to date no one has ever been able to answer. Exactly what nutrients are missing from NLS, that can be found in the wide variety of foods that you feed?
Specifically, which amino acids, lipids, vitamins, or trace elements?
Anyone?
If a single food can supply all of the essential nutrients that a fish requires to truly thrive, then why must a shotgun style of feeding be utilized? I'm certainly not saying that one can't feed numerous foods to their fish, only that if a single highly digestible & highly nutritious food is used, one can also feed that food solely.
For those that would argue that this isn't possible, I can show you scores of fish that would disagree. Fish that even the most advanced fishkeepers have great difficulty keeping alive in captivity, species such as Achilles Tang, Moorish Idol, and Rock Beauty. In years past some of these species were considered "doomed in captivity", yet today many of these fish are kept successfully long term, and thrive on a single pellet food.
You can argue all you want, but the facts remain the facts. You can throw all the variety that you want to a fish such as a Moorish Idol, and even if they eat it all, most won't survive more than a few weeks or months in captivity. If that same wild fish can be converted to NLS, their survivability just went up 1000%.
If in the past a wide variety of foods seldom, if ever, kept these same species alive long term, let alone thriving, how does one argue with those results? Do we really need someone wearing a white lab coat to explain the obvious?
This hobby has come along ways over the past 50 yrs, and I personally welcome anything that can improve someone's fishkeeping experience. Today we have a multitude of filtration methods & equipment that is offered the hobbyist, controller units that can monitor & control everything from the tanks temperature, lighting (with dawn/dusk/moonlight options), pH, even email you notification of an equipment failure, and high quality aquariums that come in all shapes & sizes. Even the species now available to the average hobbyist is something that many fishkeepers only dreamed about 50 yrs ago. The science of fish nutrition has also vastly improved from what we knew 50 yrs ago, and many myths & misconceptions from the past, have now been proven to be false.
It's also becoming more clear with each passing study that many of the health disorders that we see in both freshwater and marine fish are directly related to a diet that is lacking in various nutrients.
While certain foods may in fact keep a fish that's kept in a totally non-stress environment, healthy, place that same fish under any type of stress (and there are many forms of stress that can take place in a glass cage) & that same food may fail miserably. The problem lies in the fact that when a fish does become ill, most hobbyists aren't going to be able to pin-point the exact cause, be it a lack of certain vitamins/minerals, amino acids, lipids, or an incorrect balance of these nutrients.
While a fish may not eat pellets/flakes in the wild, they do in fact consume all of the aforementioned nutrients, they are simply bundled up in a different package.
I'm 50+ yrs of age, and I've been keeping fish for a few odd years now, and I have tried every type of feeding regimen humanly possible. I can personally state that for myself, my current manner of feeding my fish is the best that I have tried or used over the years. It's not like I was born with a can of brand x in my hand.
Many years ago, I even fed Hikari.
