Hikari vs. NLS

[Gatorxxx420]

Honestly, RD. posts very informative stuff. Though I sometimes wondered if he does it for personal gain or not. He does post some good and informative stuff. Sure he sells the stuff, but he's a wholesaler and only sells it to stores in Canada. The biggest majority of MFK members are stateside so what really is he gaining by doing what he does? Nothing. People stateside or other countries are not putting money in his pocket. So I have to believe when he says he's out for the best interest of the fish. Personally, I wouldn't feed my fish Hikari solely because of MSG. MSG isn't even good for us humans, so why would I want my fish to consume it? I've seen results from NLS when I fed it to my Dempsey's. A friend has also fed his fish strictly NLS for a period of time and there were great results from it. For those out there that choose to feed their fish Hikari or other foods, so be it. It's all personal preference. I choose NLS as my staple with frozen, freeze dried and live treats to break up the monotony for them.

BTW, RD. has stated he feeds exclusively NLS... he just happened to do so through ingredients.

 

[RD.]

Just think where we'd all be today if Al Gore hadn't invented the internet.




Buddha ............... you said;

I could write anything on a label,but unless you are actually behind the scenes,you nor i actually knows whats in nls or hikari.

What makes you think that I don't have a VIP behind the scenes pass?
I am indeed privy to many things that the average consumer is not. I have also seen analysis on foods that were performed by a non-biased 3rd party accredited institution, and personally conversed with one of the PhD holding researchers who is considered by their peers as being an expert in the field of fish nutrition, and who oversaw these analysis.

I have also seen the results of a study performed in Singapore in 2002, a confidential in-house study, performed by a number of highly accredited veterinarians. The study was strictly for evaluation purposes only, and was not meant for commercial use. It involved 33 of what were considered the top brands at that time, and both NLS & Hikari was part of that study. I can assure you that there are people within the tropical fish food industry that are well aware of this study, and the results. No real point in me posting the results, I doubt that you would believe me if I did.
Let's just say that I wasn't surprised.




JK47 -

Honestly your waisting your breath. As soon as anything on the planet besides NLS is offered or recommended, RD is just going to get on his soapbox..

Had you actually taken the time to read this discussion in its entirety, you would found that I have clearly stated (over & over again) that if one is happy feeding what they are feeding, then by all means keep doing what you are doing. I don't believe that I am hip-no-tizing anyone, and planting unpure thoughts about Hikari, or any other brand of food.

I have also (more than once) steered those who are looking to be super economical towards feed mills, where you can save a TON of money if cost is your only, or main concern. Things are tough out there for a lot of people, so I can certainly understand if someone feels the need to buy farm feed in bulk to feed their fish.

Ask yourself why on earth would I do such a thing if losing or gaining customers was a concern of mine? I don't work for New Life, nor have I ever sold anything to anyone on MFK. I strictly deal with retail vendors, and only in the Great White North. If you have actually taken the time to read through this discussion I think you'll find that I have a fairly solid grasp on the subject of fish nutrient requirements, and have even offered advice/assistance to those who only feed frozen food. (which NLS does not manufacture or sell)

So if this is all about sales, as some people seem to think, then I must be the worst salesman in history!

If you actually go back to page 4 of this discussion, you'll see that the reason that I initially entered this discussion was to correct someone who thought that a nitrogen reading (crude protein%) equated to total nutrient value of a food.

Allowing bogus info to go unchallenged is precisely how many of the urban myths in this hobby have been created. I don't see that type of behavior as being productive, or helping this hobby grow. While sometimes it would be much easier for me to sit on my hands to ensure that I never offend anyone, I don't see that as helping this hobby grow, either.

 

[buddha1200]

a confidential in-house study

Sounds fishy to me,I actually kinda like these debates gives me some thing to type about.lol

We all know companies can make reports and studies sound any way they want. most vets promote certain brands for the kick back. And we all seen the drug companies come out with miracle cures to only a year or so later be in a class action law suite(we all have seen the comercials, if you or a loved one were injuried or died while taking or drug)there in house confidential studies showed they were the best also.
As i have said the only way to solve a debate like this is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your fish on nls is healthier than mine on hikari.

Because i doubt we will ever see the comercial(if you or your loved ones fish died or had health problems while feeding nls or hikari please contact the law office of)

 

[RD.]

buddha ........ I think that you misunderstood, there were no food companies involved, and no funding from any food companies. The food with the highest score had no knowledge of the study until long after the results were in, which were at a much later date passed on to them. Hard to get a kick back from a company that didn't even know such a study was taking place. lol

No conspiracy theory here amigo, just pointing out to you that sometimes there are things taking place behind closed doors that will never be made public due to the politics involved.

Let me give you another example. A US based university that is well known for their aquaculture programs & studies decides to evaluate something dietary related with (pick a species) of fish. They may use a number of commercial foods, sometimes along with foodstuffs from the wild. They will sometimes also have an analysis performed on all of these foods, and list them in their study for comparison sake, and for further discussion during their evaluation.

Sometimes you will find these studies posted in peer reviewed journals, and on rare occasions even in books available to the general public - but due to the politics involved you won't find the names posted above each food, as some perform very well, and some fail miserably.

These institutions rely on grants, if they were to say that with brand A the fish not only survived, but gained in growth & weight throughout the study, while on brand B 39% of the fish died, 16% went blind, and 27% came down eith HITH, how well do you think that would play out when applying for further grants? Most of their grant money would probably be spent on attorneys. The brands of the food are of no concern to these types of researchers, they have no dog in the food war fights, nor do they want to have one. It's pure science to them, and that's it.
They then apply that science to real life, real situations in the hopes to further the science within the aquaculture industry.

FYI - I didn't make those numbers up, those are actual stats from an actual study performed by a very well known institution, and overseen by someone that is considered an expert in the field of fish nutrition.

BTW - this isn't a Criminal law case being discussed, where one needs to prove everything beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you are going to view all of this in a legal manner, it would be more accurately defined as a Civil case, where a preponderance of the evidence is required. That's where the little things start to pile up, things such as the use of corn flakes, dried bakery products, alpha starch, soybean meal, rice bran, gluten meal, MSG, etc. and/or foods with a whopping 17% ash content. And that's without even comparing the micronutrient levels.

You don't have to be an expert on nutrition, or be a criminal attorney to weigh these things out in your own mind, and draw your own reasonable conclusions based on a preponderance of the evidence.

I guess for some people seeing a red hot burner is clear enough, while others aren't 100% satisfied until they actually get burnt.

 

[flowerpower]

Just skimmed through the last few pages and I agree that variety is a must. Neil, you got me to start using nls almost exclusively as my pellet. My fish thrive on it but without their occasional blackworms, earthworms, megaworms, market shrimp and the like my fish would go on strike!
I'm currently feeding all of the above plus crickets, freeze dried grasshoppers and a whole bunch of other treats when I got em. I also soak my nls pellets in Kent nourish every few days. Overall, I think their colors correspond more with mood and water quality than food.
The irony of it is this: if you really want to see you fish color up, fast them!

 

[VRWC]

Im amazed at the stupidity, ego & immaturity of most of these posters here that continually have arguments against facts with "how they feel" about which is better. Its like American politics...there are those that "feel with their little hearts" that we should be doing things and there are those that use 50+ years of statistics to make their decisions. Stats and facts trump everything and some will just never get it.

I have never used NLS (mainly because I have about 6 months worth of hikari left) & primarily use hikari, but after all the facts presented here and using this thread as motivation to scour online for a lot more info, the evidence is clear.

Ill bet if someone posted pics of subjects who took steroids for 6 months next to subjects who worked out and ate healthy for 6 months, some on here would be talking about how awesome steroids are because the subjects have perfect bodies with larger and more muscle definition, regardless of the harm being done or the unhealthy manner that their bodies were achieved...just because they want the "last word" like a 4 yr old.

Until someone here has 50% of the knowledge and 50% of the facts that RD has presented for the other side, at least for me, youre wasting the energy in your little fingers...because, again, its your "opinions"...and from the looks of most grammatical & punctuation errors in those "opinions", they dont have any educational basis worthy of being acknowledged on the topic.

Any 8 yr old can feed a fish tank with the same food and do weekly water changes. It doesnt mean its a scientific study.

 

[RD.]

Ed, they are your fish & you can feed them anything that you like.

Having said that, I would strongly advise against presoaking NLS in any type of liquid vitamin, such as Nourish. Not only are you wasting your hard earned $$$ on the supplement, but the reality is the micro & macro nutrient levels found in NLS are light years beyond what you are presoaking them. Trust me on this.

 

[ecoli73]

RD, if Brand B is Hikari, then say it(and provide sources). If not then your example has no bearing on this discussion.

Let me put it this way(from my own experiences)...

My first Royal pleco died with typical sunken stomach etc...and the algae wafers I was using at the time was NLS.

Now if I just stopped at that, what would people think I was trying to say?

In any case, I think had it been Hikari algae wafers, the result would have been the same. It is not until I supplemented the pleco's diet with wood and fresh veggies, was I able to keep royals successfully(and I use both Hikari and NLS wafers(and sometimes others) these days, just depending on who has a better price and more convenient.

What I do not like is the attitude and the message that NLS solves all ones food problems and others are somehow insidiously bad for the fish.

 

[HrHagel]

What I do not like is the attitude and the message that NLS solves all ones food problems and others are somehow insidiously bad for the fish.

Sigh...

 

[shenlonco]

Come to think of it after reading NLS ingreediants I don't think a fish in the wild would find or ever eat half the stuff they put in it?

That's what i gather...Looks like one of those foods with ingreediants to WOW the people so they buy it and not the fish?