Hikari vs. NLS
- Thread starter Biggfeast
- Start date
Clyde ----- Boyd Vita-Chem is a well rounded liquid vitamin designed for fish. Some people also choose to gut load their feeders with a good quality food, right before feeding, and/or stuff pellets into frozen food. Either one of those options will remove any potential vitamin/mineral deficiencies.
With regards to the marketing campaign, while I have a vested interest in this product, I do not get paid for my comments here, or anywhere else. Not even so much as a slap on the back and an atta boy. I am every bit a hobbyist just like everyone else on this forum. Interestingly enough New Life has no marketing agents, or sales reps, and other than a couple of trade shows a year does not spend a single penny on advertising. I honestly don't know of a single other fish food manufacturer on the planet that can say that, AND have the world-wide success that New Life has achieved. Word of mouth is an amazing tool, and in the end consumers don't get stuck with the bill.
It would be interesting to know how much Hikari spends on advertising in a single year, and where those funds come from. Think about that for a moment.
Red0 - that discussion that you referred to was locked due to the pinhead that was previously banned going over the top, again, and getting banned, again. Had he not cluttered that thread up it could have carried on with little to no issues.
Also, and this is why I attempted to drive home this point earlier, if you look at the formula that you were discussing in that thread (Hikari Cichlid Gold) I have yet to have anyone explain to me how a food that contains corn flakes as its second ingredient, along with wheat flour, gluten meal, and more starch, be considered more for carnivores, than one that is based on krill, herring, and squid? Carnivores can simply not assimilate large quantities of starch.
Hikari Cichlid Gold
Fish meal, flaked corn, wheat flour, gluten meal, brewer's dried yeast, starch, enzyme, garlic, astaxantin, DL-methionine, monosodium glutamate, vitamins and minerals
Perhaps this bears repeating ........
Percentages on labels are for the most part nothing more than numbers that someone wearing a white lab coat have come up with via an in-house analysis. As an example, the crude protein % is nothing more than the total nitrogen content found in the food, it doesn't tell you anything about the amino acid content, the overall quality of that protein, or even the total digestibility of that protein. (as in the protein that your fish can actually assimilate)
An old leather boot would appear as "crude protein" on a pet food label.
In other words it is impossible to judge the quality of one food over another by simply comparing percentages found on a label.
If a fish food label shows a crude protein percent of 48%, but only 50% of that crude protein can actually be utilized by the fish, a more accurate reading for that food would be a total digestible protein reading of 24%. Even as larger carnivorous species mature, the less protein they require in their diet for growth & normal metabolic function. Of course many hobbyists are under the impression that the more protein the better, no matter what stage of life their fish is at. This is simply not true, and can ultimately lead to less than optimum water quality in ones tank. While many species of fish are capable of using a high protein diet, in some cases as much as 50-60% of that protein may be excreted into your aquarium water. Most nitrogen is excreted as ammonia (NH3) via the gills of the fish, with only approx 10% being excreted as solid waste. In other words, most of this wasted protein will never be visually seen by the hobbyist.
The main amino acid (protein) source in Hikari Gold appears to be comprised from a generic fish meal (which I would assume is why the ash content is 15%), vs a max ash content of 9% in NLS. Generic fish meal is made up from processing plant waste, heads, bones, and scales. The high mineral content leads to a high total ash content, which is basically just adding unwanted pollution in your tank. Some ash in any food is unavoidable, but IMHO 15% is excessive.
The main amino acid (protein) source in NLS is South Antarctic Krill, Herring, Squid, along with New Zealand Mussel in the flakes & Finicky Fish formula. No generic fish meal, and some of the richest & most expensive ingredients one can use for amino acid content. Also all of the meals used in NLS are comprised from whole fish, whole krill, whole squid, etc - not heads, bones, and scales.
The vitamin c content in Hikari Gold is listed as a fixed quantity (75 mg/kg) - where NLS doesn't have it listed on their label, but I can tell you that NLS contains approx 10 times the amount found in Hikari. 75 mg/kg is basically the bare minimum required by a juvenile oscar. (according to studies involving vitamin c requirements of oscars) The ironic part is that the stabilized form of vitamin c used in fish feeds is actually very inexpensive, so there's really no reason to cheap out in that area. Just as in humans, the more stress a fish is under, the more vitamin c it requires. So if a company cheaps out in areas that are already quite inexpensive, what do you think they are doing in the more costly areas of the raw ingredients? Hmmmm.
I'm not attempting to slam Hikari, but it is what it is. That's not to say that Hikari won't get the job done, in the vast majority of cases it certainly will, I just happen to believe that there are far better alternatives out there than filling a fish full of corn flakes.
New Life is indeed coming out with some new formulas, including a "monster" formula, but it's not to compete with anyone. New Life will be manufacturing all of their various formulas on site in the near future, which simply offered them a chance to expand their product line, and improve the food even beyond the quality that you currently see. In the grand scheme of things, New Life is a small family owned business, that either through the quality of their product & word of mouth, or sheer dumb luck, has become the food to beat for most other brands currently on the market, and certainly for those that are attempting to enter the fish food market. Which is precisely why these discussions seem to constantly pop up. lol
With regards to the marketing campaign, while I have a vested interest in this product, I do not get paid for my comments here, or anywhere else. Not even so much as a slap on the back and an atta boy. I am every bit a hobbyist just like everyone else on this forum. Interestingly enough New Life has no marketing agents, or sales reps, and other than a couple of trade shows a year does not spend a single penny on advertising. I honestly don't know of a single other fish food manufacturer on the planet that can say that, AND have the world-wide success that New Life has achieved. Word of mouth is an amazing tool, and in the end consumers don't get stuck with the bill.
It would be interesting to know how much Hikari spends on advertising in a single year, and where those funds come from. Think about that for a moment.
Red0 - that discussion that you referred to was locked due to the pinhead that was previously banned going over the top, again, and getting banned, again. Had he not cluttered that thread up it could have carried on with little to no issues.
Also, and this is why I attempted to drive home this point earlier, if you look at the formula that you were discussing in that thread (Hikari Cichlid Gold) I have yet to have anyone explain to me how a food that contains corn flakes as its second ingredient, along with wheat flour, gluten meal, and more starch, be considered more for carnivores, than one that is based on krill, herring, and squid? Carnivores can simply not assimilate large quantities of starch.
Hikari Cichlid Gold
Fish meal, flaked corn, wheat flour, gluten meal, brewer's dried yeast, starch, enzyme, garlic, astaxantin, DL-methionine, monosodium glutamate, vitamins and minerals
Perhaps this bears repeating ........
Percentages on labels are for the most part nothing more than numbers that someone wearing a white lab coat have come up with via an in-house analysis. As an example, the crude protein % is nothing more than the total nitrogen content found in the food, it doesn't tell you anything about the amino acid content, the overall quality of that protein, or even the total digestibility of that protein. (as in the protein that your fish can actually assimilate)
An old leather boot would appear as "crude protein" on a pet food label.
In other words it is impossible to judge the quality of one food over another by simply comparing percentages found on a label.
If a fish food label shows a crude protein percent of 48%, but only 50% of that crude protein can actually be utilized by the fish, a more accurate reading for that food would be a total digestible protein reading of 24%. Even as larger carnivorous species mature, the less protein they require in their diet for growth & normal metabolic function. Of course many hobbyists are under the impression that the more protein the better, no matter what stage of life their fish is at. This is simply not true, and can ultimately lead to less than optimum water quality in ones tank. While many species of fish are capable of using a high protein diet, in some cases as much as 50-60% of that protein may be excreted into your aquarium water. Most nitrogen is excreted as ammonia (NH3) via the gills of the fish, with only approx 10% being excreted as solid waste. In other words, most of this wasted protein will never be visually seen by the hobbyist.
The main amino acid (protein) source in Hikari Gold appears to be comprised from a generic fish meal (which I would assume is why the ash content is 15%), vs a max ash content of 9% in NLS. Generic fish meal is made up from processing plant waste, heads, bones, and scales. The high mineral content leads to a high total ash content, which is basically just adding unwanted pollution in your tank. Some ash in any food is unavoidable, but IMHO 15% is excessive.
The main amino acid (protein) source in NLS is South Antarctic Krill, Herring, Squid, along with New Zealand Mussel in the flakes & Finicky Fish formula. No generic fish meal, and some of the richest & most expensive ingredients one can use for amino acid content. Also all of the meals used in NLS are comprised from whole fish, whole krill, whole squid, etc - not heads, bones, and scales.
The vitamin c content in Hikari Gold is listed as a fixed quantity (75 mg/kg) - where NLS doesn't have it listed on their label, but I can tell you that NLS contains approx 10 times the amount found in Hikari. 75 mg/kg is basically the bare minimum required by a juvenile oscar. (according to studies involving vitamin c requirements of oscars) The ironic part is that the stabilized form of vitamin c used in fish feeds is actually very inexpensive, so there's really no reason to cheap out in that area. Just as in humans, the more stress a fish is under, the more vitamin c it requires. So if a company cheaps out in areas that are already quite inexpensive, what do you think they are doing in the more costly areas of the raw ingredients? Hmmmm.
I'm not attempting to slam Hikari, but it is what it is. That's not to say that Hikari won't get the job done, in the vast majority of cases it certainly will, I just happen to believe that there are far better alternatives out there than filling a fish full of corn flakes.
New Life is indeed coming out with some new formulas, including a "monster" formula, but it's not to compete with anyone. New Life will be manufacturing all of their various formulas on site in the near future, which simply offered them a chance to expand their product line, and improve the food even beyond the quality that you currently see. In the grand scheme of things, New Life is a small family owned business, that either through the quality of their product & word of mouth, or sheer dumb luck, has become the food to beat for most other brands currently on the market, and certainly for those that are attempting to enter the fish food market. Which is precisely why these discussions seem to constantly pop up. lol
I am not talking about hikari gold and bio gold. I am talking about food stick and massivore delite. Yes NLS is a well rounded pellet, and is better then hikari pellet but I don't think NLS has anything that can compete with massivore delite and food sticks. For that reason I prefer hikari. I use those 2 foods the most.
Same difference Red0, read the ingredients listed on the label, and re-read my post above.
Food sticks
Fish meal, krill meal, wheat flour, alpha starch, flaked corn, rice bran, brewer's dried yeast, enzyme, cantaxanthin, asyaxanthin, L-lysine, DL-methionine, vitamins and minerals including stabilized vitamin C.
Now add them all up & let me know what the total starch content would be. See how that works.
Massivore
Fish meal, krill meal, starch, wheat flour, dried seaweed meal, brewer's dried yeast, dried A. niger fermentation extract, astaxanthin, canthaxanthin, vitamins and minerals
Let me know exactly what the 3rd ingredient is comprised of (starch) and it will become very clear as to why the crude protein content is 47% (min) in massivore. Again, please re-read my previous post with regards to protein & amino acid content.
There are soybean (starch) products that have a crude protein content in the 80-90% range, and while that may allow impressive numbers on a label, a carnivorous species simply won't be able to utilize the majority of that so called protein.
Food sticks
Fish meal, krill meal, wheat flour, alpha starch, flaked corn, rice bran, brewer's dried yeast, enzyme, cantaxanthin, asyaxanthin, L-lysine, DL-methionine, vitamins and minerals including stabilized vitamin C.
Now add them all up & let me know what the total starch content would be. See how that works.
Massivore
Fish meal, krill meal, starch, wheat flour, dried seaweed meal, brewer's dried yeast, dried A. niger fermentation extract, astaxanthin, canthaxanthin, vitamins and minerals
Let me know exactly what the 3rd ingredient is comprised of (starch) and it will become very clear as to why the crude protein content is 47% (min) in massivore. Again, please re-read my previous post with regards to protein & amino acid content.
There are soybean (starch) products that have a crude protein content in the 80-90% range, and while that may allow impressive numbers on a label, a carnivorous species simply won't be able to utilize the majority of that so called protein.
your posts are to long, I glance threw them haha. I threw in a few NLS pellets to my aro at first and he did not look at them. After days of no food and only being offered NLS, he got to the point where he puts them in his mouth and spits them out. After doing the same thing, he chews them a bit and then spits them out. If I toss in food sticks, he is the first one at them. For some reason, he hates NLS. I think its because he was rasied on Hikari.RD.;3646090; said:
Neil, so do you know about this rumor that NLS is making a pellet to compete with hikaris massivore diet. Is this true?
I already answered your question, but if you're not interested in reading my responses I'll save my fingers the workout.
Ill go back and readRD.;3646178; said:
ah, monster formula. So is this going to be something like a sinking carnivorous pellet?
Neil covered basically everything, but I'd like to add something.
Corn is one of the most difficult to digest sources of starch/cabohydrates around. Many animals can have organ problems because of it, and some may notice corn is often actually visible in feces. Stomach acid (HCl) has a pH of 1. Tell me now that corn is digestible? Now think about that fact that fish's intestines (mostly carnivores to add to that) are not even designed to eat starch sources like that. It is also responsible for causing diseases and sickness in dogs/cats (when pet foods containing alot of corn are used, corn is usually the culprit).
I just went to check all my NLS cans to confirm, NLS does not use any corn in their food. I also noticed (Im surprised you didnt post NLS ingredients list to compare, Neil) that with most of my cans, the amount of starch sources in the NLS are very low and infrequent. Good job NLS.
Neil, I have a question. I think you may have answered it before, and the solution may arise from changing production factories, but, why are Thera A+ 6.5mm pellets so hard? All my fish will eat them, but only if they are pre-soaked to soften them. Otherwise they get spat out?
Cheers,
Chris
Corn is one of the most difficult to digest sources of starch/cabohydrates around. Many animals can have organ problems because of it, and some may notice corn is often actually visible in feces. Stomach acid (HCl) has a pH of 1. Tell me now that corn is digestible? Now think about that fact that fish's intestines (mostly carnivores to add to that) are not even designed to eat starch sources like that. It is also responsible for causing diseases and sickness in dogs/cats (when pet foods containing alot of corn are used, corn is usually the culprit).
I just went to check all my NLS cans to confirm, NLS does not use any corn in their food. I also noticed (Im surprised you didnt post NLS ingredients list to compare, Neil) that with most of my cans, the amount of starch sources in the NLS are very low and infrequent. Good job NLS.
Neil, I have a question. I think you may have answered it before, and the solution may arise from changing production factories, but, why are Thera A+ 6.5mm pellets so hard? All my fish will eat them, but only if they are pre-soaked to soften them. Otherwise they get spat out?
Cheers,
Chris
In the future NLS will contain even less carbs than they do now. Pablo informed me just last night that he is even removing soybean isolate on all future batches. (changes in labels will appear as old labels get used up)
What Chris stated about corn is very true, which is why I tend to take a very close look when I see ingredients such as gluten meal, or starch. Personally I think consumers should at least be able to know what forms of gluten meal/starch are being used. Corn gluten meal might be fine for pig feed, but personally I would rather not be feeding it to my fish.
Chris - the 6mm TherA are indeed rock hard, and I too have had large CA cichlids spit them out unless they were pre-soaked. The problem (if you can call it that) is what happens when low amounts of carbs/starches are used, in an extruded sinking pellet. My solution was to feed the floating pellets, along with some of the wafers. Problem solved.
Large floating pellets aren't nearly as hard due to the honeycomb shaped voids in the food, which allow it to float. This is part of the reason why some fish such as aros will reject NLS pellets, they simply don't soften up in the water fast enough (due to low starch content) to make the food palatable to the fish.
What Chris stated about corn is very true, which is why I tend to take a very close look when I see ingredients such as gluten meal, or starch. Personally I think consumers should at least be able to know what forms of gluten meal/starch are being used. Corn gluten meal might be fine for pig feed, but personally I would rather not be feeding it to my fish.
Chris - the 6mm TherA are indeed rock hard, and I too have had large CA cichlids spit them out unless they were pre-soaked. The problem (if you can call it that) is what happens when low amounts of carbs/starches are used, in an extruded sinking pellet. My solution was to feed the floating pellets, along with some of the wafers. Problem solved.
Large floating pellets aren't nearly as hard due to the honeycomb shaped voids in the food, which allow it to float. This is part of the reason why some fish such as aros will reject NLS pellets, they simply don't soften up in the water fast enough (due to low starch content) to make the food palatable to the fish.
