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Multiple Oscars in Large Tank

HITH and nitrate concentration, and pathogenic bacterial buildup are not simply anecdotal, but backed up with my own testing, actual unbiased trials, and experimental evidence.


Yes, along with numerous peer reviewed papers studies going back decades. Some even singling out some of the bacteria as the direct cause, such as Spironucleus vortens.

"In freshwater fish, Spironucleus sp. has been reported in cichlids, including angelfish, and cyprinids. Spironucleus elegans has been found causing disease in angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare) in Europe (Kulda and Lom, 1964b), while Spironucleus vortens has been also reported from the intestinal lumen of angelfish bred in Florida (Poynton et al., 1995). They can be found in the intestinal tracts of healthy fish and they may invade the body of the host and are capable of causing severe parasitemia under stress conditions (Molnár, 1974).

Hexamita are considered commensal organisms but can be pathogenic under various stressful conditions such as nutritional inadequacies, suboptimal water quality, crowding, poor sanitation and infections from other pathogens or parasites (Specht et al., 1989; Uzmann et al., 1965)

Although Hexamita and Spironucleus cause disease in several economically important fish species in many regions of the world, their pathogenicity is not well known (Woo and Poynton, 1995). It has been believed that the effects and the severity of diplomonad infection are dependent on fish size, tissue site infested, environmental conditions, stocking density, season and stress factors (Allison, 1963; Buchmann and Uldal, 1996; Mo et al., 1990; Uldal and Buchmann, 1996). Fish infected with Hexamita salmonis exhibited clinical signs correlated to their body length and weight (Uldal and Buchmann, 1996). This supports the study of Allison (1963) that large trout, more than 3 or 4 inches long, showed a smaller effect from Hexamita infection than smaller trout.

It is believed that the organisms invade the intestinal epithelium and disseminate to other tissues when the host’s resistance has been suppressed (Woo and Poynton, 1995). It has been suggested that only Spironucleus spp. cause systemic infection because they can invade intestinal mucosa and disseminate to other tissues (Siddall et al., 1992). Evidence of systemic spironucleosis was reported in cyprinids and aquarium fishes (Molnár, 1974), and in salmonids (Mo et al., 1990; Poppe et al., 1992; Sterud et al., 1997). In cyprinids, many Spironucleus sp. were found in the gut where they caused reddening of the mucous membrane, brownish-gray discoloration and necrosis of liver, and haemorrhagic enteritis. In aquarium fishes, the parasite has been reported to cause losses in angelfish stock of up to 50% of the population. The infected fishes showed reddening of the skin, and haemorrhages and ulcerations in the region of the head (Molnár, 1974). The parasites were found in the gut, gallbladder and visceral organs. Spironucleus sp. were also found in large numbers in the blood and the muscle of infected fish."



None of this is breaking news, or at least shouldn't be. Control the pathogenic bacteria, and you control the associated health issues.

And on that note.....

I asked my question about canister filters because as you mentioned, all that does is hide waste. Is does not remove it until you clean it. If you aren't cleaning that thing every day or every other day which nobody does, all that crap is breaking down into ammonia-nitrite-nitrate and adding tons of vocs causing the tank to smell.

I took a different approach to the problem. 10+ yrs in, and I consider my experiment a success story. While I still export the end products via water changes, overall waste reduction has lead to FAR less filter media maintenance, with the added bonus of competitive exclusion keeping pathogenic bacteria to a bare minimum. Again, all well documented in aquaculture circles for decades, yet some folks found my experiment shocking, outrageous, one person even going so far to say that I was going to kill members rays. lol It's a long read, but ...

The Use of Probiotics in Aquaculture | MonsterFishKeepers.com

The following member doesn't appear to post here any longer, but his post sums things up nicely. No waste hiding in those canistors. Well, very little, in what used to be a sludge fest prior to using septic cleaning bacteria.


Thank you RD!

I start dosing my tank with septobac late last year. I believe in the positive probiotic effect and was intrigued with what it might mean for my canisters. I run 2 FX 5's and an Ehiem 2217 on a very heavily overstocked 180 each filter is cleaned every 6 months with a one month gap between each ones cycle.

Well today I cracked open one of the FX 5's for its 6 month cleaning. Typically the foam pads are quite heavy with sludge.

The picture below says it all!!

View attachment 1247221
 
I took a different approach to the problem.

Very cool. I'll have to read through that thread more. Thanks for posting that.

On my other stocking thread, if you have been back in it, I plan on going the red tail gourami route that you shared so thanks for that. Will be great to have one in the 300 with a medium to large schooling fish to compliment.

I'll definitely look more into the septic tank bacteria dosing. I think that concept can be further enhanced with mechanical filtration removal (looking towards either a rollermat style filter or maybe a diy traveling screen) to remove waste before it breaks down. Couple that with septic tank bacteria, some form of an anoxic/anaerobic zone with siporax for denitrifiers to work better and maybe a refugium, and I think I'll be in pretty good shape. I'll be curious if a drip system will be needed to keep up with nitrate production or if I can keep a healthy tank with relatively infrequent wc's.
 
In your research, do you have any numbers on % of soluble BOD? I'd be curious to see how much removing tss from the water column before it breaks down actually impacts nutrient export.
I did not do BOD tests.
The equipment used, was not readily available, in the drinking water plant where I worked.
 
I did not do BOD tests.
The equipment used, was not readily available, in the drinking water plant where I worked.

Sure, kind of figured that since its not a common test for drinking water. I'm thinking about doing COD. We don't do BOD in house, but we of course have COD for process control. I suppose I could send a sample to our 3rd party lab to test bod and get a ratio too, but really knowing the soluble to insoluble % would give a good idea of how much work proper mechanical filtration is actually doing.
 
I have two 12" Oscars in my 6' x 24"x 24" tank, which works because they are a pair. On the other hand, if they didn't get along then their aggression would not allow them to coexist in that size tank. These two Oscars should grow some in length but also quite a bit in thickness. My tank may even seem a bit cramped when they reach their full size.

Your tank is 6" wider and 6" taller than mine, which gives a little more space. But I can only give you my opinion; I still can't imagine 6 full-grown Oscars in there. Your alternative for 2Oscars and some schooling tank mates seems to me to be a much better option.
I’m getting into this thread late, but can’t resist a comment. Many years ago, like 35, I had 2 breeding pairs of oscars (a pair of reds and a pair of tigers) in a 70 gallon tank, with a glass divider. Yes, 4 adult oscars in 70 gallons!

Lots of good food, especially beef heart, and frequent water changes, and they were happy enough that they spawned at the same time.

(I might also mention that I had only an undergravel filter and pea-gravel.
And that I moved cross-country, so I didn’t have that setup more than a year, I think. But the fish didn’t fight, and didn’t die, or get HITH).

Ok, I know that is asking for a new @$$hole, so go ahead, tell me how terrible I am.
 
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I’m getting into this thread late, but can’t resist a comment. Many years ago, like 35, I had 2 breeding pairs of oscars (a pair of reds and a pair of tigers) in a 70 gallon tank, with a glass divider. Yes, 4 adult oscars in 70 gallons!

Lots of good food, especially beef heart, and frequent water changes, and they were happy enough that they spawned at the same time.

(I might also mention that I had only an undergravel filter and pea-gravel.
And that I moved cross-country, so I didn’t have that setup more than a year, I think. But the fish didn’t fight, and didn’t die, or get HITH).

Ok, I know that is asking for a new @$$hole, so go ahead, tell me how terrible I am.

Based on the information provided, I'd assume you kick puppies for entertainment.
I'm joking of course...

I think the hobby in general has increased it's standards since the 80s. We've also increased our knowledge some and our communication to share knowledge immensely. But in all fairness, we got a lot of bad direction in the 80s.

I don't doubt the experience you shared. But I'd be curious of some details before I co-signed it as a success. Some things to consider is, how long did they live like this? If they lived like this their whole lives, how long did they live? How big did they get? Did they eve develop Hole In The Head? They spawned, did the fry survive? How frequently did they spawn?

My guess is they didn't live 12-15 years, grow to 10"(f)-13"(m), spawn every 4-6 weeks and the spawn went on to thrive.

Also, we can create set ups that are relatively successful with a high level of maintenance. But in my experience, every single time, life gets in the way. Work gets busy. Family needs help. Tree falls on the car. Whatever. And when life gets in the way, skipping a water change is the first thing I do to make time. When life goes sideways I may skip a few in a row. And when my set up has no room for forgiveness, bad things happen when I skip maintenance.

All that said... I also see advice on forums sometimes that shocks me in the other direction.
 
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Toby—very fair comments. I edited my initial post earlier, which answered most of your questions.
Also, you are right about labor input—every water change was done with meticulously vacuuming the gravel, so Saturday especially was several hours spent on a dozen tanks.

And as you said, the 80s were different from today, particularly the information availability! But yeah, I don’t know how long that situation would have lasted without problems…
 
I’m getting into this thread late, but can’t resist a comment. Many years ago, like 35, I had 2 breeding pairs of oscars (a pair of reds and a pair of tigers) in a 70 gallon tank, with a glass divider. Yes, 4 adult oscars in 70 gallons!

Lots of good food, especially beef heart, and frequent water changes, and they were happy enough that they spawned at the same time.

(I might also mention that I had only an undergravel filter and pea-gravel.
And that I moved cross-country, so I didn’t have that setup more than a year, I think. But the fish didn’t fight, and didn’t die, or get HITH).

Ok, I know that is asking for a new @$$hole, so go ahead, tell me how terrible I am.
Sounds like you did a good job with them. But for me it's also about providing a decent quality of life.

I will compare it with making a man live in an 10' x 10' cell and taking good care of all his needs. He'll live and hopefully be healthy. Put a woman in there and I'm sure she'll get pregnant. But quality of life is far from good.

I realize we could never provide the space that fish have in nature but I sure prefer to at least try to give fish a little space to move around.
 
Based on the information provided, I'd assume you kick puppies for entertainment.

Actually I used to like dogs, but about 30 years ago I started keeping elk and white-tailed deer. After a few episodes of seeing the damage dogs joyfully inflict on deer, I lost some appreciation of those domesticated kill-for-fun-not-for-food animals most people love.

All a matter of perspective…
 
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