Spin-off Thread: How does Kensfish Food Stack Up Against NLS?
- Thread starter flowerpower
- Start date
I like Kens Xtreme myself.Not saying that it is or isn't better than NLS. But My fish like it and the ing. look fine to Me.Better than there regular line
Main Ingredients: Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Shrimp Meal, Spirulina, Fish Oil, and Vitamin supplements.
Main Ingredients: Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Shrimp Meal, Spirulina, Fish Oil, and Vitamin supplements.
Xtreme is a separate company, Ken simply sells their food.
Also, the ingredient listing posted on Kens site for that formula isn't complete, or accurate.
The binding agent (wheat flour) is followed by soybean meal, which is followed by more wheat. Without knowing the exact inclusion rates of each ingredient, when you add the total wheat, it could potentially become the main ingredient. Also, they appear to have used a lower cost fish meal (as well as herring meal?), and like most of Ken's food they didn't post the max ash content. Hmmmmm.
Lots of little tricks can & do take place in the label game.
Having said that, IMO it certainly looks a lot better than most of Ken's private label products. Some might even consider it a cheaper knock off of NLS.
Ken might want to update his listing, here's what he has for the food posted in the pic above.
Xtreme Big Fella:
If you have fish with ferocious appetites, large mouths and aggressive life styles, our Big Fella 3mm pellet is the food for you. A naturally balanced diet that appeals to any fish group.
Main Ingredients: Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Wheat Middlings, Wheat, Shrimp Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Flour, Distillers Dried Grains with Soluables, Brewers Dried Yeast, Spirulina, Monosodium Phosphate, Paprika, Limestone, Xanthophyll, Fish Oil, Lecithin, Salt, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, di-Alph Tocopheryl Acetate(Vitamin E Supplement), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Niacin, Caldium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex(source of Vitamin K activity), Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Iron Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Canthaxanthin, Astaxanthin, Beta Carotene
Guaranteed Analysis:[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] Protein 38% min, Fat 5% min, Fiber 4.5% max, Moisture 10% max.
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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Lots of wheat, soybean, and more wheat.
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Also, the ingredient listing posted on Kens site for that formula isn't complete, or accurate.
The binding agent (wheat flour) is followed by soybean meal, which is followed by more wheat. Without knowing the exact inclusion rates of each ingredient, when you add the total wheat, it could potentially become the main ingredient. Also, they appear to have used a lower cost fish meal (as well as herring meal?), and like most of Ken's food they didn't post the max ash content. Hmmmmm.
Lots of little tricks can & do take place in the label game.
Having said that, IMO it certainly looks a lot better than most of Ken's private label products. Some might even consider it a cheaper knock off of NLS.
Ken might want to update his listing, here's what he has for the food posted in the pic above.
Xtreme Big Fella:
If you have fish with ferocious appetites, large mouths and aggressive life styles, our Big Fella 3mm pellet is the food for you. A naturally balanced diet that appeals to any fish group.
Main Ingredients: Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Wheat Middlings, Wheat, Shrimp Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Flour, Distillers Dried Grains with Soluables, Brewers Dried Yeast, Spirulina, Monosodium Phosphate, Paprika, Limestone, Xanthophyll, Fish Oil, Lecithin, Salt, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, di-Alph Tocopheryl Acetate(Vitamin E Supplement), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Niacin, Caldium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex(source of Vitamin K activity), Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Iron Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Canthaxanthin, Astaxanthin, Beta Carotene
Guaranteed Analysis:[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] Protein 38% min, Fat 5% min, Fiber 4.5% max, Moisture 10% max.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Lots of wheat, soybean, and more wheat.
[/FONT]
No worries, I don't think that Ed was actually wanting to hear how Kens stacked up against NLS (in a scientific analytical sort of way), he was simply looking for others to validate his choice of food.
To the pellets; vaguely. I use the sticks, I thought I pointed that out.RD.;4081546; said:
Not that your comparison isn't valid but it doesn't help me to determine the quality of the food I actually feed my fish. Hence, my request for more feedback; substantive or otherwise.
What a presumption!!!RD.;4081645; said:No worries, I don't think that Ed was actually wanting to hear how Kens stacked up against NLS (in a scientific analytical sort of way), he was simply looking for others to validate his choice of food.
No, I listed what I use and their ingredients. You skimmed over them, addressed a few ingredients, and then passed your judgement. That was very helpful and appreciated, but you also stated this:
"For myself I chose a long time ago to support a small mom & pop operation, that's based in the USA, and that places the quality of their raw ingredients first & foremost."
Well, I'm just a bit reluctant to base my opinion of a product solely upon the rhetoric of it's spokesmen- or, for that matter, its detractors.
Now, as for your analysis of the ingredients used in Ken's Sticks, you suggest that the ingredients are of lesser quality. I actually agree with you; they're not poor per se, but lesser perhaps than those found in NLS. After all they're a mom and pop operation based right here in the U.S. of A. However, does that forbid me from asking: how do you know this?
As for some of the ingredient that you singled out for scrutiny (wheat flour, soy flour and gluten), are these considered to be undigestible or just poor sources of nutrition? If the latter, I'll point out that they're not the only sources.
-Wheat flour is nothing more than ground up wheat (not wheat middlings) and NLS uses wheat flour as one of their primary ingredient as well.
-Soy powder is ground up soy bean.
-Gluten, you cleverly state, could come from corn. Considering that it probably doesn't, can you elaborate a bit?
I thought gluten is most commonly derived from wheat, oats or barley and is a form of protein. Am I wrong? Sound similar to soy isolate, also a form of protein, which is one of the ingredients in NLS.
So, while keeping in mind that I do acknowledge the high quality of NLS, where can I get an objective analysis of these products to determine how they stack up against one another? The overall health, growth, color and vigor (namely the frequency and size of spawns) of our fish being considered while factoring in the cost.
Trying to educate myself a bit.
Ed, I'm more than capable of giving an objective non biased analysis of any food product, and I have been thus far, hence the reason why I suggested looking into buying directly from a feed mill. I didn't once even suggest that you must, or even should, feed NLS to your fish.
But in order for you to accept my assistance you must first decide whether you live in a world where a fish should receive its protein from marine protein, or rice krispies. Once you have made that decision it will be much easier for me to assist you further.
Yes, 7 posts in you finally mentioned the actual products that you feed, but I didn't skim over them, Ed. I've been in this game a long time, and it isn't like I haven't used other foods, or that I'm not familiar with the overall quality of most of them, including the various products that Ken sells.
I "know" this Ed, because I've been doing this a long time, and if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and craps like a duck, that's because it's a duck.
Some carbs/starch in a food are fine, as previously mentioned wheat flour is used as a binding agent, but when I see carbs, followed by more carbs, followed by more starch, red flags go up. Stating that the gluten could come from corn wasn't clever on my part, it made sense in keeping how I view the rest of Kens products, and the types of ingredients used, and if you actually scroll down on Kens "food sticks" page, you'll see that corn gluten is actually listed in the Cichlid Sticks, the Premium 5 Stick Blend, the Premium Tropical Sticks, and the Premium Brine Shrimp Sticks.
Keep in mind those are some of his Primo formulas .....
Speaking of which, how does one refer to a food as Premium Earthworm Sticks, when "earthworms" are the 11th ingredient listed by weight?
As previously stated, some carbohydrate in a food is fine, it can serve a purpose beyond a binding agent, and if used in limited quantities the vast majority of tropical species will be able to assimilate a good portion of the nutrients. But there's a HUGE difference between a food that uses a low inclusion rate of wheat flour as a binding agent, and one where a good portion of the crude protein is derived from grains/starch. The reason being that outside of species such as carp/koi, which can assimilate fairly hefty amounts of carbs, most tropical species cannot, and most certainly not those that fall on the carnivorous side of the equation. In simple layman terms, most fish will use some of those carbs as an immediate source of energy, and store what isn't used immediately as fat. Just as in dog food, the less carbs/starch/grain in a fish food, the better. Unless of course you prefer fat dogs, and fish.
Also, most terrestrial based plant matter comes with excessive baggage, in the form of anti-nutritional matter. Some of this can be removed via proper processing, but not all. Hence the reason why Pablo chose to use soy isolate, over soybean meal. Isolate costs a LOT more than soybean meal, but it is anti-nutrional factor free, and because it is so concentrated, one can use a lot less to get the same job done. Having said that, now that Pablo is making his own food on site, soy isolate is going to be removed from all future New Life formulas.
You can read more on Soybean meal, and some of the nutritional problems that can be associated with its use, in the following link: http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/publications/Assets/HTML_MAGS/oasis/nutrition3.html
The same holds true for most/all other terrestrial based plant matter.
If there's anything else that I can assist you with please don't hesitate to ask.
But in order for you to accept my assistance you must first decide whether you live in a world where a fish should receive its protein from marine protein, or rice krispies. Once you have made that decision it will be much easier for me to assist you further.
Yes, 7 posts in you finally mentioned the actual products that you feed, but I didn't skim over them, Ed. I've been in this game a long time, and it isn't like I haven't used other foods, or that I'm not familiar with the overall quality of most of them, including the various products that Ken sells.
I "know" this Ed, because I've been doing this a long time, and if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and craps like a duck, that's because it's a duck.
Some carbs/starch in a food are fine, as previously mentioned wheat flour is used as a binding agent, but when I see carbs, followed by more carbs, followed by more starch, red flags go up. Stating that the gluten could come from corn wasn't clever on my part, it made sense in keeping how I view the rest of Kens products, and the types of ingredients used, and if you actually scroll down on Kens "food sticks" page, you'll see that corn gluten is actually listed in the Cichlid Sticks, the Premium 5 Stick Blend, the Premium Tropical Sticks, and the Premium Brine Shrimp Sticks.
Keep in mind those are some of his Primo formulas .....
Speaking of which, how does one refer to a food as Premium Earthworm Sticks, when "earthworms" are the 11th ingredient listed by weight?
As previously stated, some carbohydrate in a food is fine, it can serve a purpose beyond a binding agent, and if used in limited quantities the vast majority of tropical species will be able to assimilate a good portion of the nutrients. But there's a HUGE difference between a food that uses a low inclusion rate of wheat flour as a binding agent, and one where a good portion of the crude protein is derived from grains/starch. The reason being that outside of species such as carp/koi, which can assimilate fairly hefty amounts of carbs, most tropical species cannot, and most certainly not those that fall on the carnivorous side of the equation. In simple layman terms, most fish will use some of those carbs as an immediate source of energy, and store what isn't used immediately as fat. Just as in dog food, the less carbs/starch/grain in a fish food, the better. Unless of course you prefer fat dogs, and fish.
Also, most terrestrial based plant matter comes with excessive baggage, in the form of anti-nutritional matter. Some of this can be removed via proper processing, but not all. Hence the reason why Pablo chose to use soy isolate, over soybean meal. Isolate costs a LOT more than soybean meal, but it is anti-nutrional factor free, and because it is so concentrated, one can use a lot less to get the same job done. Having said that, now that Pablo is making his own food on site, soy isolate is going to be removed from all future New Life formulas.
You can read more on Soybean meal, and some of the nutritional problems that can be associated with its use, in the following link: http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/publications/Assets/HTML_MAGS/oasis/nutrition3.html
The same holds true for most/all other terrestrial based plant matter.
If there's anything else that I can assist you with please don't hesitate to ask.
RD.;4081246; said:
I agree spend a hour or so on the internet and do some "studding" on how the ingredients in fish food works and you will understand what a quality fish food is.
And Ed, if you really want to educate yourself, here's a good place to start. http://www.newlife.ipbhost.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=328
It's written in simple laymen terms, but should give you a pretty good foundation for understanding the basic principles in fish nutrition, no matter what brand of food you ultimately choose to feed.
HTH
It's written in simple laymen terms, but should give you a pretty good foundation for understanding the basic principles in fish nutrition, no matter what brand of food you ultimately choose to feed.
HTH
Fun fact for ya....
The company that brings us NLS (which I love, but can't afford in bulk this year) also farms (or at least they did) African Cichlids (New Life Exotic). Thier fish were some of the very best fish available with Old World Exotic being thier primary competition (another excellent company). While talking with the salesmen about how much I loved the New Life Exotic Fish I inquired about buying the bulk size NLS they used on the farm, he replied that they didn't use NLS on the farm as it was too expensive to feed. Somehow they managed to produce large, amazingly healthy, and colorful fish without using thier own product.
Spectrum food is great... but,...even the people who make it are willing to use other products to save money.
just my 2 cents
The company that brings us NLS (which I love, but can't afford in bulk this year) also farms (or at least they did) African Cichlids (New Life Exotic). Thier fish were some of the very best fish available with Old World Exotic being thier primary competition (another excellent company). While talking with the salesmen about how much I loved the New Life Exotic Fish I inquired about buying the bulk size NLS they used on the farm, he replied that they didn't use NLS on the farm as it was too expensive to feed. Somehow they managed to produce large, amazingly healthy, and colorful fish without using thier own product.
Spectrum food is great... but,...even the people who make it are willing to use other products to save money.
just my 2 cents
