Spin-off Thread: How does Kensfish Food Stack Up Against NLS?

[flowerpower]

Thanks for the links. More like them would be appreciated.

As for 'terrestrial based plant matter': I've used zucchini, broccoli, peas and carrots in my own concoctions and have always considered them beneficial. Am/was I wrong?

According to what you're saying it would seem as if spirulina and kelp would be amongst the few and only beneficial forms of vegetable matter for cichlids.

Perhaps where some, including myself, go wrong is trying to meet the needs of all our fish with the same type/mixture of foods. I doubt, for example, that a dovii would get the same benefit from the veggie based ingredients in what I feed as a bocourti. However, I have both and they get the same mix of foods for the most part.

This leads me to my next question:

Does NLS cover the full 'spectrum' or does it still need to be supplemented with other foods to target the dietary needs of certain specialized species?

 

[RD.]

Kogo - I've mentioned that "fun fact" many times over the years. In large commercial operations the cost of feed can equate to as much as 75% of the total operating costs, so no large operation can afford to feed premium brands to their fish, and still compete with other livestock vendors - unless they are actually making their own food, and not paying a feed mill to make it for them.

Keep in mind that Pablo's farm consists of 120 ponds (approximately 30,000 gal. each), 1500 concrete vats (250gal.-500gal. each) and 1,000 40 gal. fry aquariums. This is a far cry from what most hobbyists are dealing with when it comes to feeding their fish.

Having said that, now that New Life is actually making their own food, in their own on-site facility, then can, and do feed their fish their own food.

Ed - plant matter from aquatic sources such as spirulina, kelp, seaweed, and various micro-algaes are generally always better than those derived from terrestrial sources. It really boils down to a case of how much terrestrial plant matter one is feeding. Take peas for example, most hobbyists view peas as being very safe, and actually good for herbivores.
But are they? Not really, and especially not if they have not been processed.

While the thesis written below contains a few mistakes (hopefully her prof spotted them) it does contain very accurate information with regards to peas, and other other food stuffs derived from plant matter. (soybeans, etc)


http://library2.usask.ca/theses/available/etd-03012005-103831/unrestricted/TracyBorgesonThesis.pdf


It's a long read, but if you start on page 34, 2.4.1.1 Antinutritional Factors it should help drive my point home with regards to feeding peas on a regular basis. (or soybean meal for that matter)

Even Canadian peas (Pisum sativum) which are white flowered varieties, produce some tannins and other anti-nutritional factors. (although far less than many other varities of peas)

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/t0700e/T0700E06.htm

The presence of endogenous anti-nutritional factors within plant feedstuffs is believed to be the largest single factor limiting their use within compounded animal and fish feeds at high dietary levels. Table 11 summarizes the major groups of anti-nutritional factors present in plant feedstuffs with more specific examples given in Table 12. Although these factors vary in their individual toxicity to fish, a large proportion of them can be destroyed or inactivated by heat treatment processes (Tacon & Jackson, 1985).

Unfortunately toxicological studies have not been performed on the majority of these anti-nutritional factors; on a general basis however their presence in untreated foodstuffs normally results in anorexia, reduced growth and poor feed efficiency when used at high dietary concentrations. For review see NRC (1983), Hendricks & Bailey (1989) and Lovell (1989).

Run those same peas, soybeans etc through the high temps of an extruder, and the antinutritional factors are reduced greatly, and in some cases removed entirely. Unfortunately running them through a blender, and/or freezing, doesn't do the trick.

As far as supplementing NLS, there is no need to. I keep fish classified as herbivores, omnivores, and carnivores, all in the same tank, and they eat the same food. Several yrs later, and they are all still thriving.
Some people feel the need to supplement, which is fine, but I haven't in 7 or 8 yrs of feeding this food, and have had no issues.

 

[flowerpower]

Just read through the articles. I'll save the thesis for when I have the time and patience but after skimming through it I've got a vague idea. I was startled by the intestinal cross-sections at the end of her paper. I wonder what mine look like.
Seems like it's time to re-examine the food(s) I throw in the tank.
Very informative, thanks!

Got more?

 

[jgentry]

I've used a ton of different brands and have had good success with most of them.

Personally I currently feed extreme pellets in all 3 sizes and a mix of different flake foods from Kensfish. My fish eat the extreme pellets as well if not better then anything else I have purchased and I haven't seen any negative difference in fish colors, or growth etc. I feed the flake mixtures to small fry and they seem to do fine as well. As soon as they are big enough I switch them to the smallest extreme pellets though. I have way to many fish to feed hikari or NLS.

 

[RD.]

As I have stated time & time again, there are many ways to get the job done, some ways are simply better than others. How much each individual wants to invest in the overall health & longevity of their fish is a decision that only they can make. Millions of people world-wide swear by Wardley food, so there you go.

I have way to many fish to feed hikari or NLS.

Interesting, so exactly how are you able to afford feeding Xtreme?
5lb pails of Xtreme cost $45 (at least on Ken's site) and I guarantee you that you could feed NLS, and due to the digestibility & overall nutrient difference feed less, and ultimately pay less for that same 5lb's of food.
This is exactly why I stated previously that it is impossible to judge the true value of a food by sticker price alone.



Ed - most of the current studies are geared towards looking for lower feed cost alternatives, hence the reason for that thesis. No one is studying ways to improve feed by increasing production costs. This is & always has been my main point in these little debates. I personally don't care what anyone feeds their fish, their money, their fish, their decision - but if one really wants to compare actual formulas, or raw ingredients, the reality is that some foods are indeed head & shoulders above the rest.

 

[jgentry]

As I have stated time & time again, there are many ways to get the job done, some ways are simply better than others. How much each individual wants to invest in the overall health & longevity of their fish is a decision that only they can make. Millions of people world-wide swear by Wardley food, so there you go.



Interesting, so exactly how are you able to afford feeding Xtreme?
5lb pails of Xtreme cost $45 (at least on Ken's site) and I guarantee you that you could feed NLS, and due to the digestibility & overall nutrient difference feed less, and ultimately pay less for that same 5lb's of food.
This is exactly why I stated previously that it is impossible to judge the true value of a food by sticker price alone.



Ed - most of the current studies are geared towards looking for lower feed cost alternatives, hence the reason for that thesis. No one is studying ways to improve feed by increasing production costs. This is & always has been my main point in these little debates. I personally don't care what anyone feeds their fish, their money, their fish, their decision - but if one really wants to compare actual formulas, or raw ingredients, the reality is that some foods are indeed head & shoulders above the rest.

Do you secretly work for NLS or are you perhaps looking for a job with them. I understand that that is what you like, but at the same time you yourself are assuming a lot. Were are the studies with pictures, etc of fish raised on NLS compared to all of there competetors. Show me photo's of 50 fish raised on NLS that look better then 50 fish from the same spawn raised on Xtreme. Show me scientific data that shows that fish raised on NLS compared to any other brand ends up being cheaper because you have to feed less. You are also assuming that I get my xtreme food from Kensfish, I have bought some from them but I do not get most of it there. The cheapest I can get 5lbs of NLS delivered is $55 that I have found. I can usually get the xtreme for around $35. I had better have to feed a ton less of the NLS to make up the difference.

I'm not saying xtreme is better then NLS or that NLS is not a great food. I have used it and it is a good food. I just choose not to pay that much. My wife is a vet, we also do not buy the most expensive dog food either. There is no reason to pay a ton extra just because something is a name brand.

 

[RD.]

I happen to be a personal friend of the owner of New Life, and also a wholesale distributor of NLS in Canada. Having said that, I was promoting the use of this food long before I knew who Pablo Tepoot was, and long before I had any type of vested interest in any brand of fish food.

As I have stated repeatedly in this & other discussions, how much each individual wants to invest in the overall health & longevity of their fish is a decision that only they can make. I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head, and if you are pleased with the results you see, and your cost on the food that you are using, then by all means keep feeding it.
No problem.

Good thing some of you don't live in Canada, BA's sells NLS 5lb pails up here for $110.00


This thread is about Kens food vs NLS, and beyond Pablo Tepoot himself I don't think that you'll find anyone better versed in NLS food, hence the reason I typically join in on these types of discussions.

If your wife is indeed a vet, and she has any type of background in animal nutrition (in this case fish) then you shouldn't need me to explain any of this to you. Brand names have nothing to do with it, Xtreme is every bit a brand name as New Life. If you take the time to read what I've posted, it should become crystal clear as to why you don't need someone wearing a white lab coat to explain the differences in some of these products.

Most cichlids will do ok on generic farm feed at $25 per 50lb bag, but that doesn't equate to them being "better" for the long term health of the fish.


The reality is that the type of research that you are asking for is never going to happen. Name me one company that would be willing to go head to head with NLS in any type of feed trial, or have their product analysed & compared by an accredited unbiased third party for nutrient value, next to NLS. Let me know when you find someone that's willing to take the challenge.

In the mean time, name one other fish food manufacturer that can show you fish such as those shown in the link below, that have been thriving in captivity for 10-15 yrs, on an exclusive diet of their pellets or flakes.

http://www.newlife.ipbhost.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66

Or another manufacturer that has kept "groups" of Moorish Idol thriving in captivity for even 1 yr, let alone 5+ yrs such as what Pablo achieved before a system failure during a hurricane wiped that tank out.

I'll save you some time - no one ever has. Not Hikari, not Xtreme, not Ken, nor anyone else. Period.

Anyone can keep a Moorish Idol or Achilles Tang alive in captivity for a brief period of time, but very few manage to keep these fish alive & thriving for years. In the past, many hobbyists would treat these fish with a cut flower mentality, and simply replace them with a new fish when they withered away. Today, there are many hobbyists world-wide that have found that IF their fish are provided with an optimum diet such as what's found in NLS, they too can keep these "doomed in captivity" species, for years.

These delicate fish are the true acid test when it comes to nutrient levels in fish feed, not cichlids. Try feeding a generic farm feed to some of these species & see what happens. They won't make it to the 90 day mark.

Kieron Dodds, from Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine wrote an article on the Moorish Idol in 2008, titled; "Still Impossible After All These Years - Keeping Moorish Idol". He clearly admits that the main intent of his article was to discourage anyone from acquiring this species, as he feels this fish has almost no chance in being kept alive in captivity beyond a very short duration. At one point in the article he states "Pablo Tepoot is perhaps the single individual who has had the most success with this species" - unfortunately Pablo lost his last group of Moorish Idol to an electrical failure during a hurricane, at that point Pablo had kept them thriving in captivity for 5 years.

This is something that most people would have considered impossible 15 or 20 yrs ago. Many still do today, yet it can, and has been done.

Keep in mind that I never said that anyone has to feed NLS, or even that they should, I'm simply comparing formulas/brands, something that doesn't require a team of scientists to explain, or someone with a PhD to understand.

 

[jgentry]

Like I said before, I get it, you love NLS. You sell NLS, you recommend it, etc. I stated why I don't feed it. It's to pricy in my opinion. It may very well be a better food. My food seems to do the trick though so I'm sticking with it for now. I do not keep finicky fish so I don't feel like I need a food that will keep a moorish idol alive.

Why would I say my wife is a vet if she is not? And no, she has no background in fish nutrition. Neither do any general practice vets. I do actually wear a lab coat all day and I'm more then capable of understanding the lables. You assume to much.

Simple fact is that your opinion is biased because you are profiting off NLS fish food. It is a good food as I have stated over and over. It is not worth the price if you are feeding very many fish though which is also my opinion. Take it for what its worth, it's just an opinion.

 

[RD.]

I didn't say your wife wasn't a vet, after re-reading what I posted I apologize if you read it that way. I didn't mean to imply that I questioned that comment.

You wear a lab coat all day, and state that you understand the labels, yet you seemingly want to debate issues that are quite frankly non debatable. Do I need to provide links to a study (or 10) for every nutrient statement that I make? If you feel that you (or anyone else for that matter) can refute anything that I have posted in this discussion thus far, or any other discussion, then by all means please do so. If not, then put your silly liitle salesman card away while I attempt to help those who appreciate the time I take to post on this forum.

You are welcome to your opinion, I have no problem with that, and have said so to you & the OP from the get go in this discussion. Yes, there are less costly alternatives, even less costly than what you are currently feeding. OK?

With regards to the finicky fish comment, and Moorish Idol, I'll be back later with a detailed response.

The real world is calling .....

 

[Modest_Man]

All I'm wondering is how one can give an unbiased opinion if they're a personal friend of the owner and sell the product. Haha.

I've used all sorts of foods and will continue to do so. NLS among them.