Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

[RD.]

I couldn't agree more with neutrino. The fixation on growth seems to run rampant on forums, high protein, high calories, and maximum growth in minimum time. I don't own a trout farm, and never understood the logic behind this style of keeping fish in captivity, especially in home aquariums.

Years ago a local acquaintance who spent several months diving & collecting fish in Lake Malawi told me how much smaller most cichlid species were in the wild, than in his tanks at home. He was shocked. Up until actually seeing wild fish, in the wild, did he understand just how much he had been overfeeding all of his tanks over the years. Too many calories, period, the result being fish that were in some cases almost double in size to what they typically were in the lake.

 

[LBDave]

I couldn't agree more with neutrino. The fixation on growth seems to run rampant on forums, high protein, high calories, and maximum growth in minimum time. I don't own a trout farm, and never understood the logic behind this style of keeping fish in captivity, especially in home aquariums.

Years ago a local acquaintance who spent several months diving & collecting fish in Lake Malawi told me how much smaller most cichlid species were in the wild, than in his tanks at home. He was shocked. Up until actually seeing wild fish, in the wild, did he understand just how much he had been overfeeding all of his tanks over the years. Too many calories, period, the result being fish that were in some cases almost double in size to what they typically were in the lake.

Couldn't agree more. Not a proponent necessarily for growth. Just the well being of the fish. But there is a thing about big type fish that fascinates me. Personally I am struggling just to keep the fish growing at the same rate to maintain compatibility. I see things about feeding the fish all day long, multiple times. To get them growing. I would only do this when rearing.

 

[RD.]

This is actually the paper that I was looking for this morning. Same end results either way.

An Evaluation of Two Commercially Prepared Feeds on Growth Performance and Liver Condition of Juvenile African Cichlids Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli | Request PDF

Request PDF | An Evaluation of Two Commercially Prepared Feeds on Growth Performance and Liver Condition of Juvenile African Cichlids Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli | A 12-week feeding trial was conducted to evaluate growth performance and hepatocyte changes in juvenile African...

www.researchgate.net

An Evaluation of Two Commercially Prepared Feeds on Growth Performance and Liver Condition of Juvenile African Cichlids Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli
Article in North American Journal of Aquaculture 66(4):285-292 · October 2004 

Abstract
A 12-week feeding trial was conducted to evaluate growth performance and hepatocyte changes in juvenile African cichlids Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli fed commercial diets commonly used on cichlid farms in south Florida. Fish were fed either a trout starter pellet diet (TP diet; 52% crude protein, 17% lipid) or a mixed flake feed diet (fish flake [FF] diet) (47% crude protein, 7% lipid). For both species, growth was significantly greater (P < 0.05) in fish fed the TP diet than in fish fed the FF diet, H. ahli administered the FF diet exhibiting the slowest growth. The hepatosomatic index was not significantly different among treatments (P > 0.1). Histological examination revealed severe vacuolation of hepatocytes in P. socolofi fed the TP diet and moderate vacuolation in H. ahli fed the TP diet. Moderate vacuolation of hepatocytes was observed in P. socolofi fed the FF diet, and only mild vacuolation was found in H. ahli fed the FF diet. The lipid-rich TP diet may be suitable for commercial production of juvenile African cichlids up to 12 weeks of age, but prolonged feeding may result in excess lipid deposition and necrosis of the liver. Feeds like the FF diet, which produced slower growth but lower lipid deposition in livers, may be more suitable as a maintenance diet for cichlids in the home aquarium.

 

[RD.]

Ironically a friend was over yesterday taking some of my fish to their new home in his fish room (and what an incredible fish room it is!) and he commented about how large my 7 yr old midas was, he figured 14-15". I always just refer to that fish as being a good foot or so, because I don't really care either way. I am far more concerned with how long he lives than how large he gets. After eye balling him up while turned sideways in his 18" tank, he probably is a good 13" now, maybe a bit more. Just not something that I spend a lot of time considering much, with any of my fish. I doubt that I will ever set any world records for size in any of my fish rooms, and I'm ok with that. A hungry fish is a healthy fish.

 

[Coryloach]

and he commented about how large my 7 yr old midas was, he figured 14-15". I always just refer to that fish as being a good foot or so, because I don't really care either way.

And my wagtail and mickey mouse platies were called mollies on numerous occasions. All I did was keep them in large tanks, same size tanks that house oscars around here. I certainly wasn't after the biggish size but I figured any fish does better in a larger tank.

Tank size, tank ecology, clean water, and how you feed them makes a difference in how easy or difficult they are to care for.

This is so true. However, I find that the interpretations of what the above entails is where the issue lies.

 

[CANAMONSTER]

Thanks RD. Neil. I will completely agree with the notion that the less digesting a fish has to do the healthier the fish is. overfeeding causes numerous issues .

 

[Coryloach]

Flubendazole is a great med regardless. It is the best de-wormer out there that tackles several issues such as round, flat worms and protozoa, including hex. His paper was just a decoration to my post, not a testament to its truthfulness. But thank you.

By the way, any examples of his "poor advice" as I am now curious to know where you're coming from out of being nosy.



What I have read is that the symptoms are very similar but I can't tell you right now if it will cause HITH, meaning hole in the head, due to lack of specific information out there. The drug of choice for treating is dimetridazole which also tackles spironucleus vortens so it might be a no brainer to switch to a less common med in the same family as metronidazole when attempting to cure persistent HITH. Flubendazole is also in the same family of meds but broader spectrum.

I just wanted to follow up on Cryptobia iubilans.

Although it has not been linked to lateral line erosion and HITH, it is still something to consider as possible cause when fish are exhibiting symptoms for hex.

In several cases of mass mortality in Discus fish farms, in the below study it has been found cryptobia to be the major factor causing the deaths, although in all cases multiple parasites were involved including spironucleus but the latter was not considered to be the major killer.

Symptoms besides dying were anorexia, darkening,etc...similar to what spironucleus vortens may cause...

They have found that :

All dimetridazole-treated fish were alive after 3 days, and on day 4, no
C iubilans organ-isms were seen in any of the 6 fish

The dose used was:

dimetridazole(80 mg/L for 24 hours, repeated daily for 3 days

Metronidazole has been found to be non-effective against Cryptobia iubilans, however demetridazole has been found to be effective against Spironucleus vortens. So I think dimetridazole maybe the better drug choice in fish with symptoms for Hex as it will tackle both Hex and Cryptobia. Hex could be contributory but not the only parasite bothering the fish, especially in really bad cases, as found in studies. Multiple pathogens can be involved, including nematodes in severe cases, none would respond to metro.

The same study points out that all cases were triggered by prior issue with water quality...but resuming water quality, although alleviating the problem, would not cure the disease outbreak...As usual prevention is the best cure...As per the study, it is possible those flagellates could be naturally occurring in fish in low numbers, which is what I believe too. They also trialed it on oscars infected with cryptobia but sadly did not go into detail on oscars as the study was done on discus.

 

[Coryloach]

I forgot to post the link to the study.

https://www.academia.edu/18933154/Cryptobia_iubilans_infection_in_juvenile_discus

 

[duanes]

Although meds, and treatments often the ultimate answer, I believe unless we treat the source, why treatment is needed in the first place, that those probems often return, sometimes with a vengeance.
In many cases the reason a pathogen becomes virulent, is the fishes immune system is compromised. A healthy fish with a strong immune system, easily fights off incidental, and occasional bacterial incursions.
Its those that have become compromised by less than healthy conditions that succumb.
So it is fixing the less than healthful conditions, that are the solution to the probem in the first place, not that last ditch effort, not the use of meds as bandaids.
Sure some parasites when introduced must be treated.
But often bacteria are the result of un-natural water parameters, or excess toxins such as nitrate that create the chronic erosion of health.

 

[RD.]

Although meds, and treatments often the ultimate answer, I believe unless we treat the source, why treatment is needed in the first place, that those probems often return, sometimes with a vengeance.
In many cases the reason a pathogen becomes virulent, is the fishes immune system is compromised. A healthy fish with a strong immune system, easily fights off incidental, and occasional bacterial incursions.
Its those that have become compromised by less than healthy conditions that succumb.
So it is fixing the less than healthful conditions, that are the solution to the probem in the first place, not that last ditch effort, not the use of meds as bandaids.
Sure some parasites when introduced must be treated.
But often bacteria are the result of un-natural water parameters, or excess toxins such as nitrate that create the chronic erosion of health.

Well said.