This is a complete condensed timeline for this project. I'm going to bed now. links in this don't work, so I'm posting this as a google doc, the posting the content in this thread too. I'll upload pics later.
link to doc:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddr2n7nz_18qwdzjd
actual text:
facts.
First, the entire email conversations are here:
conversation
12-05-2006 - Called sanitred to ask about product and how much I would need. I actually explained all my plans, and . (Post #21 on this thread)
12-05-2006 - recieved email from sanitred with instructions on sealing a concrete tank
In this email, it also states: "All Sani-Tred products are 100% Life Time Warranted, permanently flexible, will never leak, bubble, chip, peel, crack, or delaminate. All product literature, product prices, life time warranty, tech data, MSDS, etc
is located with our website www.sanitred.com" I'm going to try to take pictues of bubbles in the stuff. I'm using a video camera here taking still images, so theres no macro photo coming. We'll see if you can make it out.
12-18-2006 - Ordered product from sanitred: Hi philip,
We have received your contact from Sani-Tred Customer Contact Form.
Your message was: Hi. I ordered 1 gal of permaflex, 1 gal of LRB and 1 gal of TAV last week. I just wanted to make sure the order was processed, as I haven\'t recieved any confirmation yet. Thanks. Philip
Reason: Sales
Application: Tank
One of our waterproofing experts will respond to you as soon as possible to the email you provided
phildlight@gmail.com
We thank you for your interest in Sani-Tred Waterproofing Products
01-05-2007 - sanitred products arrived.
01-18-2007 - warned about using sanitred lrb at the glass connection (post #161 of this thread)
01-18-2007 - found out about needing primer on glass through this forum, not talking with sanitred about the application and, nowhere on their "step by step instructions" does it say to use a primer on the glass. I'm posting a copy of their "step by step instructions" at the bottom of this post. (post #164)
01-18-2007 - (post #166) called sanitred and asked about the primer and about whether more material was needed. This is when the rep suggested applying 4 coats. here's a copy of the post:
I called them a little while ago. Yes, they do recommend the primer. I didn't know that either and didn't buy it. I'm going too, as I decided to go 4 coats instead of 3 too, and I need another gallon. One thing that has caused leaks is that people don't "frame" in the glass. It's just pressure adheared to the inside of the front panels of the tank. The sanitred isn't wrapped around the glass/acrylic. The weak point is the side pressure. With no LRB wrapping around the side of the glass, the water pressure at the side of the glass between the glass and the sanitred causes the failure. They said the cause of failure has been improper application, not failure of product, which I would have to agree with (no offense).
I've seen a lot of applications where the inside of the glass opening is slathered with silicone or sanitred and the glass is pushed into that bed. That is not a good seal, no matter what product you're using. The sealant needs to wrap the glass like my sketch on page 11.
1-26-2007 - (post #187) quoted from that post:
Oh, one last thing. I did purchase the glass primer from sanitred. It was only $15 to prime the glass. I figured while I was at it I'd get another gallon of permaflex. So I did. I'll now be doing over 4 coats of permaflex. Again, this was per the previous suggestion of the tech, and I spoke to them again at this time about how to apply the primer, and ordered the material over the phone.
1-27-07 - (post #195) Questioned about using a primer on the wood prior to installing. Again, I asked sanitred about this connection. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone asking about how to assemble this frame.
"I'm liquid nailing the pieces of lumber together. The side that's exposed to water and the bottom concrete will be sealed with sanitred. I'm going sanitred all the way here remember. I'm not going to mix materials. Sanitred gave me direction on this, and since following their instructions is the only way I get the warranty, that's what I'm doing. That's the benefit of sanitred IMO. You don't need 50 different sealing materials. Sanitred sticks to itself even when cured better than any other material. I tested this. I'd be worried about using epoxy then sanitred over it. You guys worry about this stuff way more than I do The wood that's outside the tank will be primed and painted."
1-28-07 - started applying permaflex to the wood frame. Initally impressed with coverage, because I was covering wood. Once I started trying to seal the block, it was a different story.
2-09-07 - the 5th picture in post# 252 shows one of the 1st primer coats of permaflex going on. This is the coat that the satintred rep claims I skipped. No, it doesn't show the entire tank primered, but I was working my way around the tank and took pictures when I could. My mistake for not taking a photo of the tank completely covered with one or two primer coats. Also, I don't buy that the LRB can't be applied to concrete directly, and that the primer coat is absolutely necessary. I also don't believe for one second that "that" could be the reason for these pin-hole failures.
2-11-07 - post #259 shows more of the first coat on the walls if you look closely. This was back when I was still under the impression that this stuff would seal the tank. Arggg. The block sucked this first coat up so much/fast that it's hard to see the coat. If you look closely, I'm sure you can see it.
2-11-07 - post #259 - 5th picture actually illustrates my process. I didn't do one entire coat the whole way around the tank. I actually started on that end wall, and applied a few coats of permaflex to get a feel for how many coats it was going to take to create a seal. Interestingly enough, this wall in pic 5 is where it is leaking. It's interesting because I actually estimate that there is close to 5 or 6 coats in that area. It also had a good bit of patching (as suggested by satintred) which is also evident in that picture.
3-17-07 - glass installed
03-23-2007 - first real complaint about the products. This was about when I realized how much time it took to apply all this junk. Other issues sort of occured to me when I was asked about my experience with it. Trying to help everyone out here and prevent others from going through what I'm going through. Post #399 is the first time I mentioned that they never sent me instructions with the product. The only paper in the boxes was a packing slip, and the labels on the buckets. Which didn't have anything of use on them. This is also when I was told to use 4 coats instead of 3. So here is where they actually told me how much to use. I later got an email saying I'd need 1.9 gallons of permaflex, which is .1 gallons less than what I ordered. He also told me I would need .8 gal of LRB for the wall/floor joint only. I actually ordered 1.5 gallons of LRB and 1 gallon of TAV which was more than suggested. What's funny is he admits that the pool calculator, which I should be crucified for using was correct also. text from that email here:
"5
A box that is 10 x 5 x 4 would have 50 sq of floor and 120 sq of wall (4 walls). Based on those dimensions and clearly stated rate of use of the materials
you would need what is shown below. This coincidently may correspond with the swimming pool calculator, but since this application is so small
you will only notice small differences.
1.5 gal of PermaFlex for 3 coats on the walls (all 4 walls
you have less square footage considering the glass)
.4 gal of PermaFlex for 2 coats on the floor
Total PermaFlex 1.9 gal
.8 gal LRB and .4 gal TAV for where the wall meets the floor ONLY
Any additional joints, seams, cracks, holes or rough areas? This will require more LRB and TAV. "
4-23-07 - post #488 shows final LRB patching over permaflex and then final permaflex over LRB
4-29-07 - first test fill and first leak. Post 511 tells the story, but basically, I realized that this stuff needs to be applied a LOT thicker than I thought. At this point, I had used a good bit of the material, but still had a fair amount left over, and I had applied the recommended number of coats.
4-30-07 - my first realization that this stuff was going to be bad news. The hole I found that was the apparent cause of the leak was litterally the size of a pinhead. It's very difficult to cover every pin hole in a tank made out of concrete block with this stuff. Need a thicker product. Also the first thought that I should have coated the interior of the tank with a coat of concrete. Though, this is not recommended by satintred. I think they don't recommend it because they would sell less product then. Since it doesn't take as much material to cover poured concrete vs block.
5-1-07 - stated that it was a bubble that popped which is not supposed to happen according to their statement below: ???? This is when the glass seal went. Leaked through the primer and LRB/permaflex. I found that this was more of an installation error than the product, but I also stated (post #542) that I wasn't impressed with the primer/permaflex/lrb connection to the glass.
5-4-07 - called sanitred again. This time I found out that the original primer was bad that they gave me and they were sending me more primer. This explained why it didn't stick well. This is also when I had to order more LRB to fix the primer issue, and to finish patching any other problem spots. This is also when they said that I had to set the glass within 3 hours of applying the primer! WHAT??? where did that come from? Oops, we forgot to tell you that....
notice a trend here? They don't tell you anything up front. How many times in this post have I already said "I didn't know this when I ordered" or "I found out later". They don't tell you these things up front to sell you the product. Then push it on you later.
5-5-07 - TFG's post: quoted here: wizzin, I personally wasn't too impressed with the sanitred. While yes, it sealed my tank, their customer service wasn't really all that impressive. It was when I was investigating using it but once I purchased it went down hill. The whole soap thing really pissed me off... I almost sent it back....
boy doesn't that sound familiar? I think TFG and I are both the ones to blame here.
5-18-07 - started a foam/concrete background. Bad Idea. I'll later have to tear this out.
5-25-07 - increasingly more upset with products. They don't apply like they say, and they don't hold up like they claim. quote: (post #584)
I'm waiting because I can't get the effing sanitred/primer to bond to the glass. I'm more than a little P.O. about this right now. I had to scrape all the primer and LRB off the glass again last night.
6-04-07 - realized that it was the wet permaflex curing at a different rate than the wet primer that caused the primer to crack and chip off the glass. this is 100% contradictory to what satintred told me. I had to re-seal the glass 2 times. For a total of sealing the glass 3 times. All because they told me to apply the permaflex within 3 hours of painting on the primer.
7-06-07 - full test filling.
8-12-07 - sat full for about 4 days. sat half full for about 2 weeks. It actually leaks very little. The water on the outside might be stopped using drylok or something. I'm just concerned about the water in the wall erroding the rebar and causing a structural failure.
8-14-07 - drained, and re-patched with lrb. still failed after test fill.
Here we are today. After trying to get sanitred to give me a straight answer or help me out with some free product to finish this job up given all the rough bumps in the road as far as using the product go. I actually asked earlier at some point if they'd give me a discount on the LRB since I had to order it because they supplied me with a bad primer to begin with. Instead of a "ok, here's a half gallon of LRB to get you finished", I got drilled about every step of the process, and made to sound like an idiot. A rude tone in my opinion, and weeks between responses. (my original email was from 7-10-07). Now, I keep getting the answer. Patch those holes I see in the pictures you sent me. After repeatedly saying they are not holes. Plus, those were on the other side of the tank, plus, i already tried patching a good bit of the walls with LRB.
I still claim that this stuff has bubbles in it that open up under pressure. They're closed when not full, and unless I probe every square cm of the tank, I'm never going to find a general area to patch, so a full coat of something is needed to make sure I patch every hole. My concern and my wife's is that what if there are leaks in the back that I can't see. They could be very slow leaks, but still. I just don't trust the material.
Heres that photo of the "holes"
http://www.arch-force.com/blockexplained.jpg
Concrete Block Aquarium:
1. The first thing you would do is prepare the substrate. Remove any loose crumbly substrate and knock down any high spots. Make sure the substrate is clean, dry, free of any previous applied products, and foreign matter. Poured concrete floors are typically acid etched then neutralized according to our instructions.
2. Prime the substrate with 1 coat of PermaFlex (240 sq ft per gal).
3. Patch and profile using LRB/TAV mixture (Liquid Rubber Base, Thickening Activator). 2 parts LRB is mixed with 1 part TAV. This thickened mixture is applied where the wall meets the floor, any joints, seams, cracks, holes and rough areas. Wall/floor junctions require a 1 bead of LRB/TAV mixture.
4. Topcoat using 1 coat of PermaFlex (240 sq ft per gal). Concrete block requires a 3rd coat of PermaFlex because concrete block is extremely porous. Poured concrete only requires 2 coats.
If VHO lighting or any other intense UV lighting will be used or would like a special color, apply 1 coat of a good 2 part epoxy paint. This paint will give you the color desired and extreme UV resistance. This coat will not aid or inhibit the waterproofing/sealing of the system.
Block Wall Poured Floor: Prime Coat:
Patch Joints, Seams, Cracks and Rough Areas: Topcoat:
PermaFlex:
LRB:
LRB/TAV Mixture:
LRB/TAV Round Bead Consumption Chart
http://www.sanitred.com/roundchart.htm
Product Price List:
http://www.sanitred.com/pricelist.htm
Online Order Here:
http://www.sanitred.com/productprice$.htm
All Sani-Tred products are 100% Life Time Warranted, permanently flexible, will never leak, bubble, chip, peel, crack, or delaminate. All product literature, product prices, life time warranty, tech data, MSDS, etc
is located with our website
www.sanitred.com
If you have any questions, please call or email
Ideal Products LLC
15605 W 3rd RD
Plymouth, IN 46563
Office: 574-784-3308
Fax: 574-784-3868
Email:
tech1@sanitred.com
Web Site:
www.sanitred.com
