Just outta curiousity I went two weeks without WC and my nitrates have climbed to a whopping 20 ppm.
In the tank with your Arows? If so the plants must work pretty good!
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Cheap plants, less nitrate! POTHOS
- Thread starter F1 VET
- Start date
In the tank with your Arows? If so the plants must work pretty good!
Sent from my iPad using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
Just outta curiousity I went two weeks without WC and my nitrates have climbed to a whopping 20 ppm.
Excellent!
+1 never doubt the power of pothos ^_^
__________________________________________________________________
Go S.Vettel #1 RB8 3X WDC!!!!!!!!!
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
Just outta curiousity I went two weeks without WC and my nitrates have climbed to a whopping 20 ppm.
one of my secrets to heavy stocking success. plant do wonders for filtration. just have enough bio to convert and plants will take over the rest. gotta love them!
Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
The last picture on this post, the plant on the right that has yellow in the leaf centers appears to be diffenbachia, also called dumb cane, is much more toxic than any of the other plants I have seen in this thread. Even the roots are toxic. Don't let the fish get even one bite of that one!!! Personally I would take that one out. Even though it's in the overflow box.
Some of my Golden and Silver pothos growing out of my fish tanks and some of my pothos growing up a tree outside and a few pothos relatives that I am going to try growing in my tanks as well but have not yet made cuttings....
Photos taken on January 19th, 2013
Photos taken on January 19th, 2013
Update on my plants:
Nitrate reduction @25ppm avg/week
Leaves are huge
Root system is very intertwined, will be perfect for fry
All in all a great plant and I'm extremely satisfied with the results, I paid about 15$ for the setup which lasts a lifetime.
Cheers
__________________________________________________________________
Go S.Vettel #1 RB8 3X WDC!!!!!!!!!
Nitrate reduction @25ppm avg/week
Leaves are huge
Root system is very intertwined, will be perfect for fry
All in all a great plant and I'm extremely satisfied with the results, I paid about 15$ for the setup which lasts a lifetime.
Cheers
__________________________________________________________________
Go S.Vettel #1 RB8 3X WDC!!!!!!!!!
>http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
This thread inspired me to want to do something as well and then I got to thinking. I became frustrated that I really didn't know how many plants I needed.
I wanted to try something with this concept (pothos in the aquarium.) Namely, I wanted to develop a model that would enable me to create a formula that would be a simple model for pothos in the tank. Here it is.
First, I want to thank F1 VET for two things. 1) for creating the thread and keeping it alive with encouragement and advice. It's one thing to have a good thought. It's another to take the time to inspire and make sure it's useable by others. 2) In doing this, I needed lots of information that I did not have. F1 VET was kind enough to help me with that. Not only did his posts have things like Nitrate readings, WC rates, etc., but he also provided me with feed amounts, feed types, plant growth, etc offline. You will see below, all very needed.
Second, if you don't like wading through numbers but still want to know what I found out, just skip to the end. I tend to be good at numbers, but not very good at explaining them. The only purpose is to show people how the numbers were derived and to enable people to question the comments I will make. I am not a biologist or chemist. No matter what you see, I just read stuff and put it together.
It's just a model and of course, does not match every tank.
Numbers begin here
I decided to model the setup F1 was using. From the point forward, assume when I mention anything, that I am referring to his tank.
Model before any plants are added...
This is the model before plants are added. It's simply a steady state format to reach the point where the thread started. The purpose is to show a 'stable' condition matching the metrics provided.
Food added = 14.74 grams (this was the ammonia content from 5 shrimp, 13.6 grams gross weight each, and 5 oz of NLS (equals 151 grams) that is fed each week. Protein content is 83% and 37% respectively. Conversion of protein to ammonia is gross weight x protein content x 16% x 82%, since protein is 16% nitrogen and since nitrogen is 82% ammonia.
"End" is end of the week, in grams of nitrate equivalent content taking the "start" plus the "added" and before a WC. The model had to reach a steady state to match the expected readings of ~60 PPM while also having 60-75% WC each week with the stated food. So it works that way.
"Final" is the final nitrate count (in grams) AFTER the WC.
The model uses 416,350 grams of water (110 gallons). The above are in grams, so the column "end" is the amount of grams of nitrate (23.8) in the tank at the end of a week before the WC. The column PPM is the metric for nitrate, 57 PPM, as 23.8 grams in 416,350 grams of water equals a 57PPM.
You'll note again that the amount "added" from food equals the amount "tossed" from WC in the last few weeks of the model. This is the normal mode of a "stable" enclosed tank system with no other external means of removing ammonia.
Model after plants are added.....
The column "Plants" represents an estimate of the amount of nitrates (in grams) removed weekly from the aquarium water. Since this is critical, I wanted to test this in 2 routes: 1) F1's readings and 2) calculations.
1) readings were that the PPM's dropped noticeably within the first 3-4 weeks. That, WC was reduced and still the readings dropped. The current state is around 30% WC with low readings of 15-30 PPM. The model does not KNOW how much nitrates were taken out of the system. I manually entered those to agree with the posts. So, in this model, we are deducing the amount. (In the next one, I'm going to try it another way.)
2) the pothos that F1 has in the tank has grown by 2 lbs (968 grams) since the start of the thread. (There were 2 but one was removed.) The growth has been dramatic and a tripling in size. This isn't abnormal. In this study, 2.5cm Pothos cuttings with one leaf grew to a size of 11cm tall with a 20cm canopy and 8 leaves in 3 months.
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/44/3/824.full
Below is some interesting if not obscure discussion on this.
A) plant growth is 968 grams in estimated wet weight. Dry weight is taken as 45% of this amount, therefore 436 grams. The 'normal' amount for fixed nitrogen in mature plants (pothos types in particular) is 3.1% dry weight.
(http://weather.nmsu.edu/hydrology/wastewater/plant-nitrogen-content.htm
http://www.eplantscience.com/botani...n/concentrations_of_nitrogen_in_plants.php#aa
However, please note that these are mature plants and young plants tend to have a higher concentration of nitrogen.
(http://www.eplantscience.com/botani...n/concentrations_of_nitrogen_in_plants.php#aa)
Additional factors such as type of nitrogen (ammonia vs nitrate), pH, light, the availability of nutirents, what medium was used (soil vs water), etc., can all affect the amount of actual nitrogen fixed. For this analysis, I used 6.0% dry weight.
Uptake efficiency. This a difficult to assess. It varies among species and several key environmental variables (ph, temperature, type of nitrogen source, amount of available nitrogen, age of the plant, whether seeding or not, season, etc.) In addition, plants are known to disperse nitrogen through their leaves (nitrogen volatilization), some at very at high rates.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...JzZw5t&sig=AHIEtbTPf6e6FZikgv5jBSXMHLvapqFYug
Maize for example, loses up to 40% of the nitrogen uptake as gas emissions from it's leaves. Soybean and rice show similar propensities, (rice especially at high temps). This is assumed to be a natural defense mechanism for plants since high temps and high ph, can make ammonium lethal. For this model, I used 60%.
B) With a wet weight plant growth of 968 grams, we get:
968*.45 = 436 dry weight gain
436 *.06 = 26.1 grams of fixed nitrogen added to the plant
26.1 * 100/40 = 74.7 grams total nitrogen taken by the plant from the tank with 60% loss from leaves.
Thus, a removal of 75 grams from the tank water.
This is directionally similar to the first approach (96 grams removal) and so close that many variables we estimated (plant original size, plant final size, wet weight fixed nitrogen %, nitrogen volatilization rate) could accumulate to explain the difference. Thus, I am using 96 grams as the measure of removed nitrogen.
Conclusion:
One 3 lb pothos plant can remove 12 grams of nitrogen per week. 12 grams of nitrogen is the equivalent of 12/.82/.16/.37 = 247 grams of 37% protein food per week. Almost exactly 1/2 pound.
Numbers end here
Summary of known and unknowns:
1) Pothos will remove more nitrogen the faster they grow, all other things being equal
2) Pothos removes nitrogen and fixes part of it as tissue and releases part of it to the atmosphere in various gaseous combinations. (nitrogen volatilization)
3) It's possible if you know the amount of protein fed to the fish and the amount of growth expected for the plant, to know how many plants will offset the nitrogen added to the tank. One 3 lb plant can remove ~12 grams of nitrogen per week.
4) It's possible that pothos consumes ammonium or nitrate, or both in this process. Terrestrial plants typically absorb ammonium much faster and easier than nitrate, although some studies suggest that some nitrate being present will enhance ammonium absorption. The model above would look the same regardless.
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Plants_and_Biological_Filtration
However, if pothos do consume primarily ammonium, there could be a risk in removing a large number of plants at once from a tank as the BB in the tank will have been populated on a smaller amount of ammonia. This is over and above the amount of BB that may also be residing on the plant roots.
5) Plants can release nitrogen back into the tank if allowed to rot or die.
I wanted to try something with this concept (pothos in the aquarium.) Namely, I wanted to develop a model that would enable me to create a formula that would be a simple model for pothos in the tank. Here it is.
First, I want to thank F1 VET for two things. 1) for creating the thread and keeping it alive with encouragement and advice. It's one thing to have a good thought. It's another to take the time to inspire and make sure it's useable by others. 2) In doing this, I needed lots of information that I did not have. F1 VET was kind enough to help me with that. Not only did his posts have things like Nitrate readings, WC rates, etc., but he also provided me with feed amounts, feed types, plant growth, etc offline. You will see below, all very needed.
Second, if you don't like wading through numbers but still want to know what I found out, just skip to the end. I tend to be good at numbers, but not very good at explaining them. The only purpose is to show people how the numbers were derived and to enable people to question the comments I will make. I am not a biologist or chemist. No matter what you see, I just read stuff and put it together.
It's just a model and of course, does not match every tank.
Numbers begin here
I decided to model the setup F1 was using. From the point forward, assume when I mention anything, that I am referring to his tank.
Model before any plants are added...
Code:
start added plants end WC tossed final PPM
week -12 0.0 14.7 0.0 14.7 62% -9.1 5.6 35.4
week -11 5.6 14.7 0.0 20.3 62% -12.6 7.7 48.9
week -10 7.7 14.7 0.0 22.5 62% -13.9 8.5 54.0
week -9 8.5 14.7 0.0 23.3 62% -14.4 8.8 55.9
week -8 8.8 14.7 0.0 23.6 62% -14.6 9.0 56.6
week -7 9.0 14.7 0.0 23.7 62% -14.7 9.0 56.9
week -6 9.0 14.7 0.0 23.7 62% -14.7 9.0 57.0
week -5 9.0 14.7 0.0 23.8 62% -14.7 9.0 57.1
week -4 9.0 14.7 0.0 23.8 62% -14.7 9.0 57.1
week -3 9.0 14.7 0.0 23.8 62% -14.7 9.0 57.1
week -2 9.0 14.7 0.0 23.8 62% -14.7 9.0 57.1
week -1 9.0 14.7 0.0 23.8 62% -14.7 9.0 57.1
week -0 9.0 14.7 0.0 23.8 62% -14.7 9.0 57.1
191.6 0.0 -182.6This is the model before plants are added. It's simply a steady state format to reach the point where the thread started. The purpose is to show a 'stable' condition matching the metrics provided.
Food added = 14.74 grams (this was the ammonia content from 5 shrimp, 13.6 grams gross weight each, and 5 oz of NLS (equals 151 grams) that is fed each week. Protein content is 83% and 37% respectively. Conversion of protein to ammonia is gross weight x protein content x 16% x 82%, since protein is 16% nitrogen and since nitrogen is 82% ammonia.
"End" is end of the week, in grams of nitrate equivalent content taking the "start" plus the "added" and before a WC. The model had to reach a steady state to match the expected readings of ~60 PPM while also having 60-75% WC each week with the stated food. So it works that way.
"Final" is the final nitrate count (in grams) AFTER the WC.
The model uses 416,350 grams of water (110 gallons). The above are in grams, so the column "end" is the amount of grams of nitrate (23.8) in the tank at the end of a week before the WC. The column PPM is the metric for nitrate, 57 PPM, as 23.8 grams in 416,350 grams of water equals a 57PPM.
You'll note again that the amount "added" from food equals the amount "tossed" from WC in the last few weeks of the model. This is the normal mode of a "stable" enclosed tank system with no other external means of removing ammonia.
Model after plants are added.....
Code:
start added plants end WC tossed final PPM
week 1 9.0 14.7 -1.0 22.7 62% -14.1 8.6 54.6
week 2 8.6 14.7 -1.0 22.4 62% -13.9 8.5 53.8
week 3 8.5 14.7 -2.0 21.2 62% -13.2 8.1 51.0
week 4 8.1 14.7 -5.0 17.8 62% -11.0 6.8 42.8
week 5 6.8 14.7 -5.0 16.5 62% -10.2 6.3 39.7
week 6 6.3 14.7 -7.0 14.0 62% -8.7 5.3 33.7
week 7 5.3 14.7 -9.0 11.1 30% -3.3 7.7 26.6
week 8 7.7 14.7 -9.0 13.5 30% -4.0 9.4 32.4
week 9 9.4 14.7 -12.0 12.2 30% -3.6 8.5 29.3
week 10 8.5 14.7 -12.0 11.3 30% -3.4 7.9 27.1
week 11 7.9 14.7 -12.0 10.6 30% -3.2 7.4 25.5
week 12 7.4 14.7 -12.0 10.2 30% -3.1 7.1 24.4
week 13 7.1 14.7 -12.0 9.9 30% -3.0 6.9 23.7
191.6 -99.0 -85.7The column "Plants" represents an estimate of the amount of nitrates (in grams) removed weekly from the aquarium water. Since this is critical, I wanted to test this in 2 routes: 1) F1's readings and 2) calculations.
1) readings were that the PPM's dropped noticeably within the first 3-4 weeks. That, WC was reduced and still the readings dropped. The current state is around 30% WC with low readings of 15-30 PPM. The model does not KNOW how much nitrates were taken out of the system. I manually entered those to agree with the posts. So, in this model, we are deducing the amount. (In the next one, I'm going to try it another way.)
2) the pothos that F1 has in the tank has grown by 2 lbs (968 grams) since the start of the thread. (There were 2 but one was removed.) The growth has been dramatic and a tripling in size. This isn't abnormal. In this study, 2.5cm Pothos cuttings with one leaf grew to a size of 11cm tall with a 20cm canopy and 8 leaves in 3 months.
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/44/3/824.full
Below is some interesting if not obscure discussion on this.
A) plant growth is 968 grams in estimated wet weight. Dry weight is taken as 45% of this amount, therefore 436 grams. The 'normal' amount for fixed nitrogen in mature plants (pothos types in particular) is 3.1% dry weight.
(http://weather.nmsu.edu/hydrology/wastewater/plant-nitrogen-content.htm
http://www.eplantscience.com/botani...n/concentrations_of_nitrogen_in_plants.php#aa
However, please note that these are mature plants and young plants tend to have a higher concentration of nitrogen.
(http://www.eplantscience.com/botani...n/concentrations_of_nitrogen_in_plants.php#aa)
Additional factors such as type of nitrogen (ammonia vs nitrate), pH, light, the availability of nutirents, what medium was used (soil vs water), etc., can all affect the amount of actual nitrogen fixed. For this analysis, I used 6.0% dry weight.
Uptake efficiency. This a difficult to assess. It varies among species and several key environmental variables (ph, temperature, type of nitrogen source, amount of available nitrogen, age of the plant, whether seeding or not, season, etc.) In addition, plants are known to disperse nitrogen through their leaves (nitrogen volatilization), some at very at high rates.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...JzZw5t&sig=AHIEtbTPf6e6FZikgv5jBSXMHLvapqFYug
Maize for example, loses up to 40% of the nitrogen uptake as gas emissions from it's leaves. Soybean and rice show similar propensities, (rice especially at high temps). This is assumed to be a natural defense mechanism for plants since high temps and high ph, can make ammonium lethal. For this model, I used 60%.
B) With a wet weight plant growth of 968 grams, we get:
968*.45 = 436 dry weight gain
436 *.06 = 26.1 grams of fixed nitrogen added to the plant
26.1 * 100/40 = 74.7 grams total nitrogen taken by the plant from the tank with 60% loss from leaves.
Thus, a removal of 75 grams from the tank water.
This is directionally similar to the first approach (96 grams removal) and so close that many variables we estimated (plant original size, plant final size, wet weight fixed nitrogen %, nitrogen volatilization rate) could accumulate to explain the difference. Thus, I am using 96 grams as the measure of removed nitrogen.
Conclusion:
One 3 lb pothos plant can remove 12 grams of nitrogen per week. 12 grams of nitrogen is the equivalent of 12/.82/.16/.37 = 247 grams of 37% protein food per week. Almost exactly 1/2 pound.
Numbers end here
Summary of known and unknowns:
1) Pothos will remove more nitrogen the faster they grow, all other things being equal
2) Pothos removes nitrogen and fixes part of it as tissue and releases part of it to the atmosphere in various gaseous combinations. (nitrogen volatilization)
3) It's possible if you know the amount of protein fed to the fish and the amount of growth expected for the plant, to know how many plants will offset the nitrogen added to the tank. One 3 lb plant can remove ~12 grams of nitrogen per week.
4) It's possible that pothos consumes ammonium or nitrate, or both in this process. Terrestrial plants typically absorb ammonium much faster and easier than nitrate, although some studies suggest that some nitrate being present will enhance ammonium absorption. The model above would look the same regardless.
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Plants_and_Biological_Filtration
However, if pothos do consume primarily ammonium, there could be a risk in removing a large number of plants at once from a tank as the BB in the tank will have been populated on a smaller amount of ammonia. This is over and above the amount of BB that may also be residing on the plant roots.
5) Plants can release nitrogen back into the tank if allowed to rot or die.
Catfishracer
Feeder Fish
Here ya go F1VET. This is your advice takin to my reality. 240 Gallon tank with 10 gallon sump full of growing pothos. Rooted in left over river rock substrate w/ t5 HO 4 foot light. Hidden behind doors on stand. Cuttings from shecoupons56 on eBay took off like a rocket.
Sent from my iPh
one using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
Catfishracer
Feeder Fish
@DrStrangeLove
I learned a bit from that. Although a little over my head.
I learned that plants aren't good at removing nitrates per say. That is unless you have a situation like mine.
Where my filters knock the ammonia and nitrites down to zero immediatly, and have for years. Then upon introducing pothos, because no ammonia or nitrites are available, they absorb their last choice... nitrates.
That is... until the cycle balances out and the plants begin to absorb more ammonia and nitrites over time lessoning the filters bb and raising the nitrates back to normal levels.
So I have a temporary solution?
BTW... I am unfamiliar with ammonium and nitrogen as wording, so I replaced with ammonia and nitrites nitrates
I learned a bit from that. Although a little over my head.
I learned that plants aren't good at removing nitrates per say. That is unless you have a situation like mine.
Where my filters knock the ammonia and nitrites down to zero immediatly, and have for years. Then upon introducing pothos, because no ammonia or nitrites are available, they absorb their last choice... nitrates.
That is... until the cycle balances out and the plants begin to absorb more ammonia and nitrites over time lessoning the filters bb and raising the nitrates back to normal levels.
So I have a temporary solution?
BTW... I am unfamiliar with ammonium and nitrogen as wording, so I replaced with ammonia and nitrites nitrates
Catfishracer
Feeder Fish
@Krustyfart
Are Those just regular pothos around that tree? My God the are gigantic!!! Shows what perfect growing conditions you have there if they are.
Are Those just regular pothos around that tree? My God the are gigantic!!! Shows what perfect growing conditions you have there if they are.