Hikari vs. NLS

[RD.]

ecoli ...... You also missed the message, I never said that Hikari was brand B, and in that study it most certainly wasn't. That wasn't the point of that comment, I was responding to the previous comment by buddha.

Nor have I ever stated that NLS solves all ones food or fish problems, or that other foods are somehow insidiously bad for the fish.

Are some fish foods insidiously bad for fish, well I can only say that there are foods out there on the market that I sure as hell would never feed to my fish, anymore than I would feed kibbles & bits to my dogs.


My intent in posting in this discussion was not to convert the entire fish keeping hobby to NLS. It was to provide some clear & precise reasons as to why some foods are clearly better than others, and to clear up some of the common misconceptions that take place in these types of discussions. Like most things in life there are good, better, and premium products, and also like most things in life you get what you pay for. (sometimes?)

For those happy with what they are currently feeding, keep feeding it!
As I have stated a number of times in this discussion no one is holding a gun to anyone's head, and on a personal level I honestly don't give a flying flip what anyone here feeds there fish. They're YOUR fish, not mine.

I think that the real issue in these types of discussions is the same as always, some people take what I might say as some kind of personal attack, as if they don't have the smarts to know what works best in their tanks, with their fish. Those people go into defensive mode & miss the entire message.

The reality is that no matter what brand or style of feeding that anyone uses in their own personal set ups, if you take the time to actually read & absorb what I'm saying, you should be able to benefit from this discussion.

This would cover all forms of pellets, flakes, and even frozen foods.
Go back to page 7 of this discussion, and take the time to read post #65, and post #67, then please come back here & attempt to tell me about my attitude, and the manner in which I take part in these discussions.

My motives are the same as they have always been, to help in an area of this hobby that for many years was largely ignored, misunderstood, and discussed by many who have no idea what they are talking about. If from time to time my so called attitude pisses some people off, I can live with that. It's not like I'm getting paid for my time spent here.

Cheers!
Neil

 

[buddha1200]

Im amazed at the stupidity, ego & immaturity of most of these posters here that continually have arguments against facts with "how they feel" about which is better. Its like American politics...there are those that "feel with their little hearts" that we should be doing things and there are those that use 50+ years of statistics to make their decisions. Stats and facts trump everything and some will just never get it.

I have never used NLS (mainly because I have about 6 months worth of hikari left) & primarily use hikari, but after all the facts presented here and using this thread as motivation to scour online for a lot more info, the evidence is clear.

Ill bet if someone posted pics of subjects who took steroids for 6 months next to subjects who worked out and ate healthy for 6 months, some on here would be talking about how awesome steroids are because the subjects have perfect bodies with larger and more muscle definition, regardless of the harm being done or the unhealthy manner that their bodies were achieved...just because they want the "last word" like a 4 yr old.

Until someone here has 50% of the knowledge and 50% of the facts that RD has presented for the other side, at least for me, youre wasting the energy in your little fingers...because, again, its your "opinions"...and from the looks of most grammatical & punctuation errors in those "opinions", they dont have any educational basis worthy of being acknowledged on the topic.

Any 8 yr old can feed a fish tank with the same food and do weekly water changes. It doesnt mean its a scientific study.

This is a forum not and english or writing class typing on a cell phone and making a few errors is the least of my worries i can spell every thing right and use no punctuation or spell everything wrong and use correct puntuation has nothing to do with education i can also take the time to spell or use correct puntuation still has nothing to do with education as you can see i can type how i want and and 8 year old can also turn on his grammer and spelling check and make people think he is educated by pointing out others mistakes and correcting his own before he post to further make people think he is educated damn i type with out punctuation i guess i am non educated

As i stated i rather enjoy these kind of debates and have nothing really personal against rd or anyone with an opinion.

But lets be for real unless any of us have done these experiments ourselves,it is still just hear say or others opinions.

Brand b or brand a
could be what ever i say it is(if i am the one doing the experiment)

 

[Aquanero]

Come to think of it after reading NLS ingreediants I don't think a fish in the wild would find or ever eat half the stuff they put in it?

That's what i gather...Looks like one of those foods with ingreediants to WOW the people so they buy it and not the fish?

You know you also don't find Beefheart, Garlic or Krill floating down the Amazon but these things are comminly used to feed our fish. It's not so much the individual ingreediant but what it brings to the table as far as its overall nutrition is concerned. Digestability and assimalation ect.......

VRWC, I hope I didn't make any spelling errors...good to see you again.

 

[shenlonco]

You know you also don't find Beefheart, Garlic or Krill floating down the Amazon but these things are comminly used to feed our fish. It's not so much the individual ingreediant but what it brings to the table as far as its overall nutrition is concerned. Digestability and assimalation ect.......

VRWC, I hope I didn't make any spelling errors...good to see you again.

Yes but Krill and beef hart i can see fish eating it as it's another form of protien that's close to fish (krill) or maybe a hot blooded animal that dies in the water that fish eat the meat off of and guts ( beef heart) I don't see where fish would ever eat or get some of the stuff put in the NLS food in the wild?
Tell me where a fish in the wild would get some of this? sounds like a vegitable salad!

from NLS site:Typical Ingredients: Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, Wheat Flour, Whole Squid Meal, Algae Meal, Soybean Isolate, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Garlic, Vegetable and Fruit Extract (Spinach, Broccoli, Red Pepper, Zucchini, Tomato, Pea, Red and Green Cabbage, Apple, Apricot, Mango, Kiwi, Papaya, Peach, Pear), Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine, DL Alphatocophero ( E ), Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Niacin, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphosphate (Stable C), Ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Choline Chloride.

 

[RD.]

Come to think of it after reading NLS ingreediants I don't think a fish in the wild would find or ever eat half the stuff they put in it?

That's what i gather...Looks like one of those foods with ingreediants to WOW the people so they buy it and not the fish?

But your fish aren't swimming in the wild, they are in a glass box, and being that what it is they now rely on you to supply them with proper water parameters, proper space, proper tank mates, and a proper diet.
Fish require certain essential nutrients, such as amino acids, lipids, vitamins, minerals, etc. Short of collecting exactly what a fish in the wild would consume on a daily basis, we rely on what we as fish keepers decide is a balanced diet. And even if we could collect some of these live plants, or organisms, how would one go about feeding a fish such as a Tropheus moorii an adequate diet, and at the same time keep water parameters in check?

In the wild, a Tropheus will scrape the aufwuch from sun up to sun down, in attempt to glean every tiny morsel of nutrient that they can get. But it's not the algae that makes them grow, it's the various insect nymphs & larvae, crustaceans, snails, mites, zooplankton & various other micro-organisms. One study showed that T. moorii collected in the wild had more sand & detritus in their stomach, than actual food. Times are tough in the wild, fish eat everything & anything in order to get what they need to grow, and reproduce.

A premium fish food will provide those same nutrients, using raw ingredients that contain those same nutrient levels as found in the wild, and typically at more elevated levels.

If you go back 15-20 yrs or so you'll find that at that time due to the cost of ingredients such as krill no one was using it, and certainly not as a main ingredient. Except NLS. Many have now followed.

Most companies used generic fish meal comprised of processing plant waste (and many still do) - except NLS, which uses whole herring meal.
Some have now followed.

No one was using algae meal in their feed back then, except NLS, and many have now followed.

Most companies didn't incorporate bioactive compounds in their feed, such as garlic - NLS did and again many have now followed.

These ingredients are not used to WoW consumers, they are used for the health benefits they provide a fish.

The creator of NLS has been importing, raising, and breeding fish for the past 40 yrs. His farm consists of 120 ponds (approximately 30,000 gal. each), 1500 concrete vats (250gal.-500gal. each) and 1,000 40 gal. fry tanks on 2 five acre farms.

In the grand scheme of things his family owned & operated business is just a small drop in a very big ocean of manufacturers, he has no marketing agents, no sales agents, and other than attending the odd trade show he spends zero on advertising. Amazing when you consider that his food has become so popular that for years he has been exporting his food world-wide, to countries such as Germany, Japan, Australia, Sweden, Finland, Malaysia, Singapore, China, Thailand, Kuwait, UAE, Chile, Venezuela, Mexico, Spain, Philippines, Turkey, Canada, UK, and Israel.

Not to mention the fact that some of the most prestigious public aquariums in North America also use his food. People such as Joe Yaiullo, one of the pioneers of reef keeping in the USA, and the curator/co-founder of Atlantis Marine World in NY has been feeding NLS for several years. His facility has the largest reef tank in North America (20,000 gallons) and 4th largest in the world. Charles Delbeek M.Sc., senior biologist at the Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco also feeds NLS at their facility.

Trust me, these gents aren't WoWed by anything other than results.

 

[Gruff Master]

I know from experience that these types of threads turn quite sour after a while. I use NLS, Hikari, and a few other live and natural foods. With the exception of those feeding hot dogs and spam to their fish, I think that most people here generally want to raise healthy and beautiful fish. I have learned a lot of things since joining MFK that have benefited my fish as well as myself. We may not always agree on methods or practices, but I think we can all agree that we want to raise quality specimens while educating others with the abundance of variety in this trade and hobby. Now let's all sing Kumbaya together before this thread gets out of hand.

 

[shenlonco]

But your fish aren't swimming in the wild, they are in a glass box, and being that what it is they now rely on you to supply them with proper water parameters, proper space, proper tank mates, and a proper diet.
Fish require certain essential nutrients, such as amino acids, lipids, vitamins, minerals, etc. Short of collecting exactly what a fish in the wild would consume on a daily basis, we rely on what we as fish keepers decide is a balanced diet. And even if we could collect some of these live plants, or organisms, how would one go about feeding a fish such as a Tropheus moorii an adequate diet, and at the same time keep water parameters in check?

In the wild, a Tropheus will scrape the aufwuch from sun up to sun down, in attempt to glean every tiny morsel of nutrient that they can get. But it's not the algae that makes them grow, it's the various insect nymphs & larvae, crustaceans, snails, mites, zooplankton & various other micro-organisms. One study showed that T. moorii collected in the wild had more sand & detritus in their stomach, than actual food. Times are tough in the wild, fish eat everything & anything in order to get what they need to grow, and reproduce.

A premium fish food will provide those same nutrients, using raw ingredients that contain those same nutrient levels as found in the wild, and typically at more elevated levels.

If you go back 15-20 yrs or so you'll find that at that time due to the cost of ingredients such as krill no one was using it, and certainly not as a main ingredient. Except NLS. Many have now followed.

Most companies used generic fish meal comprised of processing plant waste (and many still do) - except NLS, which uses whole herring meal.
Some have now followed.

No one was using algae meal in their feed back then, except NLS, and many have now followed.

Most companies didn't incorporate bioactive compounds in their feed, such as garlic - NLS did and again many have now followed.

These ingredients are not used to WoW consumers, they are used for the health benefits they provide a fish.

The creator of NLS has been importing, raising, and breeding fish for the past 40 yrs. His farm consists of 120 ponds (approximately 30,000 gal. each), 1500 concrete vats (250gal.-500gal. each) and 1,000 40 gal. fry tanks on 2 five acre farms.

In the grand scheme of things his family owned & operated business is just a small drop in a very big ocean of manufacturers, he has no marketing agents, no sales agents, and other than attending the odd trade show he spends zero on advertising. Amazing when you consider that his food has become so popular that for years he has been exporting his food world-wide, to countries such as Germany, Japan, Australia, Sweden, Finland, Malaysia, Singapore, China, Thailaland, Kuwait, UAE, Chile, Venezuela, Mexico, Spain, Philippines, Turkey, Canada, UK, and Israel.

Not to mention the fact that some of the most prestigious public aquariums in North America also use his food. People such as Joe Yaiullo, one of the pioneers of reef keeping in the USA, and the curator/co-founder of Atlantis Marine World in NY has been feeding NLS for several years. His facility has the largest reef tank in North America (20,000 gallons) and 4th largest in the world. Charles Delbeek M.Sc., senior biologist at the Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco also feeds NLS at their facility.

Trust me, these gents aren't WoWed by anything other than results.

Don't know about you but i been fishing for over 30 years at alot of different locations and i never once when fishing seen anything in NLS food even near the water hardly at all... see more of it in the super market !!

Let me know if you seen these by bodies of water that contain fish?
Because i never did?
from NLS site:Typical Ingredients: Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, Wheat Flour, Whole Squid Meal, Algae Meal, Soybean Isolate, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Garlic, Vegetable and Fruit Extract (Spinach, Broccoli, Red Pepper, Zucchini, Tomato, Pea, Red and Green Cabbage, Apple, Apricot, Mango, Kiwi, Papaya, Peach, Pear), Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine, DL Alphatocophero ( E ), Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Niacin, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphosphate (Stable C), Ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Choline Chloride.

 

[flowerpower]

Ed, they are your fish & you can feed them anything that you like.

Having said that, I would strongly advise against presoaking NLS in any type of liquid vitamin, such as Nourish. Not only are you wasting your hard earned $$$ on the supplement, but the reality is the micro & macro nutrient levels found in NLS are light years beyond what you are presoaking them. Trust me on this.

Interesting, what's your take on the live or frozen food items that I mentioned. Any nutritional benefit or more redundancy.
I think its safe to say, without any statistical analysis, that most fish enjoy these 'prey items' even if they are pre killed and processed in some way. They provide mental stimulation and for that reason alone they are worthwhile treats for my fish, however, what they offer my fish by way of nutrition may influence the frequency with which I offer them.
Sorry, don't mean to detract from the convo.

 

[Gatorxxx420]

Don't know about you but i been fishing for over 30 years at alot of different locations and i never once when fishing seen anything in NLS food even near the water hardly at all... see more of it in the super market !!

Let me know if you seen these by bodies of water that contain fish?
Because i never did?
from NLS site:Typical Ingredients: Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, Wheat Flour, Whole Squid Meal, Algae Meal, Soybean Isolate, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Garlic, Vegetable and Fruit Extract (Spinach, Broccoli, Red Pepper, Zucchini, Tomato, Pea, Red and Green Cabbage, Apple, Apricot, Mango, Kiwi, Papaya, Peach, Pear), Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine, DL Alphatocophero ( E ), Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Niacin, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphosphate (Stable C), Ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Choline Chloride.

You're clearly missing the point, most fish food does not contain anything from their natural environment. It does however contain nutritional value that is vital for a long healthy life of the fish. Top brands offer higher quality fish food, which contains higher nutritional value and that's better for the fish. I would rather offer my fish something of high quality with more thriller than filler.

I don't understand why so many take Neil's posts as such an attack. I've never seen him anywhere in here state that you have to feed NLS and NLS only. All he's trying to do is pass on knowledge he's gained from his many years in this hobby through his personal experiences and trying to make ours better than his has been over the years. I appreciate him taking the time to share this stuff with me. You all (those that seem to take it personal that is) should re-read this thread, because I'm sure a lot of you are misunderstanding his intentions.

 

[buddha1200]

This is just a debate,i myself am not takin it personal just expressing what i feel about the subject and the statements made.Just like rd expresses how he feels about the statements i make. Just two different opinions from two different people. I think its others that are making it personal by saying he is being attacked. If we cant state how we feel or think on the subject than what is the piont of this whole forum. If every time some one doesnt bow down and agree with some one else they are automatically attacking some one. I read all the info rd has presented on the subject,most very interesting,but that doesnt mean i have to agree with it all,even though i do agree with some.