Its been a long time, Oscar, Astronotus rubrocellatus from Rio Negro

[knifegill]

Is that Ashdavid's Oscar???

 

[SFury]

Ahh, so you are the person that your oscar buddy has been talking about.

No one is saying that the fish will keep its juvy colors, on the contray, but it is said to have very distinct traits that other oscars do not, ie body shape ,patterns and coloration. And I never said that white finnage is rare, but the location that this fish was obtained from is, and it has not been imported from there before.

One thing you should take into consideration about your comment on Japan is that although some people are only after a quick buck there are people in this trade that can be trusted and some people actually go to destinations and collect the fish themselves. Of corse this raises the price of the fish ,but when you are getting what you pay for an have the peace of mind that it is what they say it is it is all worth it. How many times do you see fish in Japan that no where else in the world can ever dream about? Quite often I might add.

Even though you said you are not and "expert" on identification maybe before you "imply" that a fish may not be what it is said to be you should investigate all channels and see if the fish is what it is said to be. I don't know how you would do that, but I suggest you do anyway.

Anyway, there will always be doubters wanting to put something or someone down....

Identifying fish scientifically is best done through DNA comparison or through physical characteristics normally most easily distinguishable as adults or sub-adult fish. The two distinct species I've seen of oscars are very similar structure wise as juveniles.

Oscars are like largemouth bass in this region as far as coloration goes. Water conditions with such simple differences as water clarity, clear vs murky, cause the exact same species of fish to appear differently. Murky water largemouth bass tend to be darker in overall coloration, and clear water ones are more colorful with a more pronounced green sheen with more pronounced markings. Color and markings are irrelevant at times for IDing fish.

I may not be an expert, but I have to have the basic IDing of fish species down to avoid being fined, as well as to avoid a prison sentence, and most importantly to keep my rights to go fishing here in the US.

As far as my comments go on importing and IDing fish, they are valid. Just because something came from a remote rarely gone to region doesn't mean that it is new. Japan has a history of importing hard to get fish and IDing them properly through hard work. Does that mean everything is correct? Of course not. The phrase "caveat emptor" always applies with every purchase we make.

I always doubt new unsubstantiated fish finds. If it were truly a new find then there would be scientific publications about the discovery. Scientists love naming new things and taking credit for their discoveries. Its a vanity of that profession after all.

 

[rED O]

Lots of good information here.

I agree with sfury when he almost guarantees that the astronotus will not have that color as he grows.

thanks for the support ofish crew

 

[knifegill]

If it were truly a new find then there would be scientific publications about the discovery.

There are plenty of examples of undescribed species in aquaria. Look a Loricariidae, for example. Just because somebody owns a fish doesn't mean that fish has been through rigorous studies and classifications.

 

[big_tank_boy]

Theres a store by be that has 2 tanks full of these oscars........ they are very beautiful when u get to look at them in a tank just not some photos..... but great photos and sweet fish thinking about getting a few for my grow out tank.

 

[ashdavid]

I am not an Ichtyologist. If anyone here is, then please speak up. Although I am a hobbiest, I got my first Oscar in 1973 and have owned many. In 1973, there were only two types of Oscars in the aquarium trade, those being the wild variety of Astronotus Ocellatus (aka the Green Oscar) and the first commercially bred color morph of that species, called the Red Tiger. Red Oscars, Lutinos, Gold Oscars, etc. are all color morphs of A. Ocellatus produced via selective breeding since that time.

A. Ocellatus is also called the Common Oscar. It is of the Family Chiclidae, Tribe Chaetobranchini, Genus Astronotus, Species Ocellatus.

Rarely seen in the hobby is the second Oscar species Crassipinnis, also known as the Fat Oscar or Black Oscar. As far as I know, these have not been bred in captivity and are only available in wild caught varieties. There do appear to be several wild morphs of Crassipinnis, there is considerable variation in adult coloration depending mainly upon where the fish was collected.

A. Crassipinnis was originally described by J. Heckel in 1840. It was mistakenly classified Acara Crassipinnis. It was correctly classified by S. Kullander in 1986 in Cichlid fishes of the Amazon River drainage of Peru.

The fish in the first photo is obviously a juvenile and the adult markings and coloration are thus unknown. However the body shape, fin shape, and the two noticeable rows of raised scales on the side differ from the more common Oscars. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the fish in the original post appears to be a juvenile Crassipinnis. It may well represent a new color morph not seen before. I gather that it was collected in the Rio Negro. The Crassipinnis species has been collected from those waters before. So tentatively: It is of the Family Chiclidae, Tribe Chaetobranchini, Genus Astronotus, Species Crassipinnis.

In any case the fish is stunning, and the owner should be congradulated for owning a rarely collected species, little known to Science. If these can be bred in captivity that would be a first AFAIK.

As to what can be expected - A. Crassipinnis has never been collected in a specimen longer than about 9.5", and the adults are probably smaller than the common Oscar - but that too is not certain, if you can grow yours larger it would be a new record for the species.

Very informative post. We will just have to wait and see how this little guy develops.

A quick Google search on the name Astronotus rubrocellatus yields very few results, mostly from MFK. Even fishbase.org has nothing on this "species". I am seeing a lot of attacks directed towards Red O. People calling him a noob or uneducated but I ask you how are you supposed to research an alleged species when there is no information about it? Surely if it has a scientific name than a paper or something has been written describing it but no search turns up this information. I find is skeptical that a new species of Astronotus can be described and the only person who knows about it is a fish keeper in Japan. That said the fish in question is a beautiful specimen and probably wild caught from the Rio Negro I don't believe it is anything new to science and probably one of the two described Astronotus species. Before anyone blasts me over my opinion try looking at it from our perspective and keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with a bit of skepticism.

Edit: Further research has lead me to the name Cychla rubroocellata (Jardine & Schomburgk, 1843) but this is an outdated synonym for Astronotus ocellatus and no longer valid.

No, calling him a noob was due to the manner in which he choose to speak his opinion. Also .he stated his opinion as if he were an expert on the matter when he or noone eles including me know what this fish is going to turn out like.

Is that Ashdavid's Oscar???

Where did that come from, of corse it is my fish. Do you want me to take a pic of me holding todays newspaper next to the tank?

Identifying fish scientifically is best done through DNA comparison or through physical characteristics normally most easily distinguishable as adults or sub-adult fish. The two distinct species I've seen of oscars are very similar structure wise as juveniles.

Oscars are like largemouth bass in this region as far as coloration goes. Water conditions with such simple differences as water clarity, clear vs murky, cause the exact same species of fish to appear differently. Murky water largemouth bass tend to be darker in overall coloration, and clear water ones are more colorful with a more pronounced green sheen with more pronounced markings. Color and markings are irrelevant at times for IDing fish.

I may not be an expert, but I have to have the basic IDing of fish species down to avoid being fined, as well as to avoid a prison sentence, and most importantly to keep my rights to go fishing here in the US.

As far as my comments go on importing and IDing fish, they are valid. Just because something came from a remote rarely gone to region doesn't mean that it is new. Japan has a history of importing hard to get fish and IDing them properly through hard work. Does that mean everything is correct? Of course not. The phrase "caveat emptor" always applies with every purchase we make.

I always doubt new unsubstantiated fish finds. If it were truly a new find then there would be scientific publications about the discovery. Scientists love naming new things and taking credit for their discoveries. Its a vanity of that profession after all.

Yes and I can ID a guppy b/c I know the general shape, but when it comes to nameing the different varients I have not a clue.

There are many new snakehead speices being found every year and most times the first people to get them are people in the fish trade. The collectors then usually send them to a very well known scientist in Malaysia to ID'ed. So there are cases when a collector does not send a fish a scientist and that fish could well be in the trade a long time before it is offically discovered. The black wolf is another example, to my knowledge it is still an undescribed species but has been in the aquarium trade for many years now, so your theory on there being scientific publications really is moot.

Lots of good information here.

I agree with sfury when he almost guarantees that the astronotus will not have that color as he grows.

thanks for the support ofish crew

Good for you, tell us something we don't know...

 

[kmuda]

There are plenty of examples of undescribed species in aquaria. Look a Loricariidae, for example. Just because somebody owns a fish doesn't mean that fish has been through rigorous studies and classifications.

Yes... but there are over 700 species of Loricariidae indicating it is a genus quite prolific in it's capacity to spin off into new species. There are only two species of Astronotus recognized by science. The discovery of a third would certainly be in the news in some fashion or have published scientific articles justifying the "new species" label.

I agree with SFury, a healthy dose of skepticism must accompany any claim of a new species of Oscar's being released into the hobby.

But it's somewhat irrelevent. The focus is, and should be, the exceeding attractiveness of the fish. Definitely unusual and unusual makes it rare, new species or not. If I had to guess, it's adult coloration will be similiar to the following:

But I could be wrong. It will be very interesting to follow up on this in about 6 months. Hopefully the OP will do so as there are a lot of interested people.

 

[skools717]

Lots of good information here.

I agree with sfury when he almost guarantees that the astronotus will not have that color as he grows.

thanks for the support ofish crew

you were getting jumped all over

 

[knifegill]

Quote:
Originally Posted by knifegill
Is that Ashdavid's Oscar???

Where did that come from, of corse it is my fish. Do you want me to take a pic of me holding todays newspaper next to the tank?

No, silly. Not the original one. The one in the pond on page 5. It's a wild caught from somewhere, but it looks too big to be the original. It's just that the lower pic on page 5 was posted shortly after I asked for a recent picture, so I was making sure it wasn't a friend of yours at your pond or something like that.

 

[samurai-h]

I am not an Ichtyologist. If anyone here is, then please speak up. Although I am a hobbiest, I got my first Oscar in 1973 and have owned many. In 1973, there were only two types of Oscars in the aquarium trade, those being the wild variety of Astronotus Ocellatus (aka the Green Oscar) and the first commercially bred color morph of that species, called the Red Tiger. Red Oscars, Lutinos, Gold Oscars, etc. are all color morphs of A. Ocellatus produced via selective breeding since that time.

A. Ocellatus is also called the Common Oscar. It is of the Family Chiclidae, Tribe Chaetobranchini, Genus Astronotus, Species Ocellatus.

Rarely seen in the hobby is the second Oscar species Crassipinnis, also known as the Fat Oscar or Black Oscar. As far as I know, these have not been bred in captivity and are only available in wild caught varieties. There do appear to be several wild morphs of Crassipinnis, there is considerable variation in adult coloration depending mainly upon where the fish was collected.

A. Crassipinnis was originally described by J. Heckel in 1840. It was mistakenly classified Acara Crassipinnis. It was correctly classified by S. Kullander in 1986 in Cichlid fishes of the Amazon River drainage of Peru.

The fish in the first photo is obviously a juvenile and the adult markings and coloration are thus unknown. However the body shape, fin shape, and the two noticeable rows of raised scales on the side differ from the more common Oscars. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the fish in the original post appears to be a juvenile Crassipinnis. It may well represent a new color morph not seen before. I gather that it was collected in the Rio Negro. The Crassipinnis species has been collected from those waters before. So tentatively: It is of the Family Chiclidae, Tribe Chaetobranchini, Genus Astronotus, Species Crassipinnis.

In any case the fish is stunning, and the owner should be congradulated for owning a rarely collected species, little known to Science. If these can be bred in captivity that would be a first AFAIK.

As to what can be expected - A. Crassipinnis has never been collected in a specimen longer than about 9.5", and the adults are probably smaller than the common Oscar - but that too is not certain, if you can grow yours larger it would be a new record for the species.

Your infomation is old already.
Crassipinnis is not rare in Japan. They sometimes are imported from Rio Mamore in Brazil range and Pantanal .I always get them here.
And more bigger ones than 9.5" have been imported to Japan.
I still have old pics of huge Crassipinis male like 15".
Juvenile of Crassi has a very different color pattern from others.
It's very easy to find out ID.
You don't know I was the most super Oscar crazy in Japan.
Thanks
Seiichi