Its been a long time, Oscar, Astronotus rubrocellatus from Rio Negro
- Thread starter ashdavid
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just so we're still on point here, this is a beautiful jevenille oscar, of whatever specie it may be. I like the one that is 50% of the lower body is solid red, and is more elongated, i've seen some at Oliver's place about 8 years ago, and I wanted them bad!
winning an argument on the internet is like winning the special olympics
there are these catagories of people in the fish hobby/internet
business people-vendors-just out to make a buck, or a living
true hobbyist-dedicated in breeding and keeping fish, they love their fish
collectors-spends a ton of money just so they can have the "in" fish
rich collectors-money is not an issues, as long as its the fish they want
scientists-those who hide behind books and formalin pickled fish, studying hand drawings form 1840's
innovative fish keepers-always looking for some new information, open minded, and willing to learn and accept new information
noobs-
know it all people-they like to make generalized claims and statements, such as, "for sure these will be..." , from my guppy keeping experience, I know for sure....
haters/doubters-these people cannot accept that there are new fish out there, new species being discovered. they can only see the fish bowl in front of them. and if people have it, or are keeping it, they'll find reasons to put them down, doubt them, discredit them.
where do you see yourself?
feel free to add to these catagories or place yourself in one of them
winning an argument on the internet is like winning the special olympics
there are these catagories of people in the fish hobby/internet
business people-vendors-just out to make a buck, or a living
true hobbyist-dedicated in breeding and keeping fish, they love their fish
collectors-spends a ton of money just so they can have the "in" fish
rich collectors-money is not an issues, as long as its the fish they want
scientists-those who hide behind books and formalin pickled fish, studying hand drawings form 1840's
innovative fish keepers-always looking for some new information, open minded, and willing to learn and accept new information
noobs-
know it all people-they like to make generalized claims and statements, such as, "for sure these will be..." , from my guppy keeping experience, I know for sure....
haters/doubters-these people cannot accept that there are new fish out there, new species being discovered. they can only see the fish bowl in front of them. and if people have it, or are keeping it, they'll find reasons to put them down, doubt them, discredit them.
where do you see yourself?
feel free to add to these catagories or place yourself in one of them
I'm the Poor Hobbyist category most of the time.fugupuff;3062698; said:
Stunning Oscars Ashdavid can't wait to see them in adult colors. Wild Oscar's are starting to grow on me.
Again, I don't want to offend anyone, but the photo above is recognizably Astronotus Ocellatus. The red ocellus-like markings around the dorsal fin are characteristic of the common Oscar, and I have never seen such on a A. Crassispinnis specimen.south coast nelly;3060635; said:
from the rio nigro
If indeed both Astronotus species exist within the Rio Negro waters then it would be appropriate to be very very skeptical of any claims of new species from that region. The possibilities now would include that any specimen collected might be either A. Oscellatus or A. Crassipinnis or a hybrid form of both.
Science does not know whether the two recorded species of Astronotus are inter-fertile, however it is quite common for species within the same Genus to be so capable. There is also a behavioral element that must be considered - many African lake cichlids exist as seperate species in their native waters, but in aquaria these seperate species will interbreed - as many hobbiests with a tank of "mixed Africans" can attest. So it is also quite possible that BOTH A. Ocellatus and A. Crassipinnis could exist as seperate species within the Rio Negro, or alternatively that they would mix as hybrids.
Even if a collector is honest and reputable, that does not mean that the fish he sells are a new species as he claims. It is quite common that what are sold as new species are later discovered to be new morphs of known species, collected from other waters. If two species overlap in the same waters and are inter-fertile and have the disposition to interbreed, then it is also possible that the collector would unknowingly sell hybrids as a new species.
Truthfully there remain some scientists who dispute that A. Ocellatus and A. Crassipinis are seperate species even today - some would claim they are a single species. They have only been classified in the same Genus since 1986.
So while I would not hesitate to spend money on an attractive specimen of an Oscar that I had never seen before, I would not go so far as to name a new species unless DNA testing had been used to confirm the species. More likely it is a new color variety (morph) of the two recognized species.
In particular, Astronotus Rubrocellatus is not mentioned in any reference I own. There is one Ichtyologist (Axelrod) who lists Astronotus Orbicularis as an Oscar species - he bases this on morphological differences in the juvenile forms and the fact that both are found in different biotopes. But even he admits there is no way to distinguish adult specimens of A. Orbicularis from A. Oscellatus - both "species" share the same adult forms and color morphs.
Just curious if you have any new photos of your O?
Would be great to see how he/she is turning out.
Would be great to see how he/she is turning out.
From what info I have the A. Rubrocellatus is an already a recognised species that comes from the Rio Negro and Rio Branco. And I have also been led to believe that A. Crassipinis is found in the pantanal region like in south Brazil , argentina ,upper Madeira river sytem in Blivia and Peru and Brazil and not in the Rio Negro. So if this fish was collected from the Rio Negro I don't see how it could be an A. Crassipinis.KaiserJeep;3063109; said:
What refferences are you going off?
Yeah , sure you have.jjollie;3063115; said:
No , none at the moment. It still is only showing its juvi colors anyway. Cheers.Natural_Born_Killer;3063202; said:
If you have a scientific reference that lists A. Rubrocellatus and describes the species, please name it. If it's not in my personal library I have access to a large university library nearby. It might take me a few days but I can check the reference materials there. If this fish was described in a periodical (including Axelrod's Tropical Fish Hobbiest) then I can check the microfiche. I also have several years worth of the looseleaf sheets from TFH where Dr. Axelrod described his new "species" in every issue.
The last time I went through this exercise to find any new Oscar species was in 2002, and at that time, nobody had described even the A. Orbicularis in a scientific journal. Dr. Axelrod is a genuine scientist who has done great things for the aquarium hobby but many of his discoveries are -ah- controversial. I'm afraid that if he is the only source of information about the species you mention, it might not stand up to much scrutiny.
The last time I went through this exercise to find any new Oscar species was in 2002, and at that time, nobody had described even the A. Orbicularis in a scientific journal. Dr. Axelrod is a genuine scientist who has done great things for the aquarium hobby but many of his discoveries are -ah- controversial. I'm afraid that if he is the only source of information about the species you mention, it might not stand up to much scrutiny.
KaiserJeep;3063626; said:
Certainly, Axelrod and TFH are not the only publications out there, the magazine caters mainly to entry level hobbyists. There are many more Scientific journals out there that describe new species that are not mentioned in TFh. Kottelot journals, zootaxa and many more.
Axelrod, had a lot of contributions to the hobby in the past century, but he's no longer current, last he was being indicted for Tax evasion.
Remember, there are clumpers and splitters. For over hundreds of years, Cyphotilapia frontosa was considered as one species, and now they've split it into gibberosa
Sceloropages formosus was one species as well for over a century up until what 6 years ago, they were split up by some French Scientists.
Science is ever changing. I think Ashdavid is open to the idea that the fish he has may or may not be a "new species" but certainly a unique fish.
And fish of the same Genus do and can live together in the same habitat. Rio Negro is enormous, its not your averaged sized creek in your back yard.
Maybe someone is willing to post some different pictures of fish that they consider as Orbicularis, crassipinnis, etc...what do people consider as a wild occelatus now? as almost all the oscars on the market now are captive bred over generations
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