Its been a long time, Oscar, Astronotus rubrocellatus from Rio Negro

[R1_Ridah]

I don't think David had ever mentioned the adult will ever look like the juvie color? Everyone knows color & pattern will always change in most fish as it get's older. One thing Japan has over the U.S would probably be the credibility of the resource from who they get their fish from. Unlike in the U.S their is really only a handful of trustworthy sources.

Also, to try to compare the specie to a large mouth bass? and say color and pattern is not relevent to properly IDn'g fish, well if you were going to do that why not compare it to a PEACOCKBASS. I mean, how many common Bass varients are out there. Aside from being able to have the access to running a DNA test, color and pattern is the best means of IDn'g? In addition, important to know the exact collecting point to properly ID.

As Wes mentioned we are in a new millenia where many of the resource books are outdated and many new species are discovered however not yet referenced.

This goes for PEACOCKBASS. At one point Pinima's were classified as Temensis, Kelberi's as Mono's? etc..etc.. until as of late became their own classified specie. In total their is a handful of newly described specie in the Cichla family oppose to the Mono, Occe, Temensis, Orino that people were use to seeing for years.

The Rubrocellatus is not a new import to Japan. I've seen adult pictures that's been raised in the past. The color defitnitly differs from juvies however the body is more elongated and the red on the body is very intense on the belly. Perhaps this person can interject and show his pictures if he wish's to.

I'm curious as to what you guys think the Oscar pictured below is.

BTW - I think it's great that this discussion is taking place because this is all part of being in the hobby. Sharing thoughts and having opinions. We can make do without the name calling of course. Also, progression pictures through the course of time will be awesome.

 

[VVateverzYo]

I AGREE

 

[fugupuff]

this one that I had, now JohnPTC's tank, maybe he can update the photo, this was taken over one year ago. don't know how people can be so sure that there is only one species of Astronotus out there...

 

[sandtiger]

I don't think anyone is "so sure" there is only one species of Astronotus out there but that fact remains that only two have been described by science. It would not surprise me to find out that there are several species or sub-species of Astronotus but as it stands A. rubroocellatus is not an acknowledged species and so the fish in question cannot be A. rubroocellatus. I'm sorry if this offends the OP but one hobbyist posting pictures of an oscar and claiming it is a new species does not make it so and until a source is provided describing this new species I will continue to remain skeptical of its existance. That is not to say that this fish is not a unique sub-species or varient not often seen in the hobby, it very well could be, I just doubt that a new species of Astronotus was described and the only thing to back it up is a Japanese fish store and a hobbyist.

 

[KaiserJeep]

OK, I'll bite. This picture posted by R1_Ridah:

...appears to be A. Crassipinnis from the Rio Guapore (Brazil) or the Rio Itanez (Bolivia). It has the characteristic lack of ocellated spots near the dorsal fin, and the first vertical off-white bar is well forward of the pectoral fin, characteristics that define A. Crassipinnis. Lastly the single river above (with two names) is the only source I know of where A. Crassipinnis has the small "freckle" spots near the gills and jaw, or the mottled scale pattern on the vertical stripes.

This photo from fugupuff:

...appears to be a more common A. Crassipinnis morph from one of the rivers of the Peruvian Amazon basin or the Parana River Basin of Paraguay or Brazil.

As always, appropriate disclaimers about attempting to identify species from photographs in the absence of DNA analysis. Using the morphological characteristics alone is risky because new morphs are collected all the time and quite often a newly disovered morph of one species will resemble a previously known morph of another species.

Axelrod's identification of A. Orbicularis has been challenged because he based it upon juvenile morphology. He had to do this because the adult morphology was identical to common wild forms of A. Oscellatus. If DNA analysis were not so expensive, we would not have provisional species such as A. Orbicularis - or extended discussions in Forums like this.

IMHO as interesting as this is, the real answer can only be had after DNA analysis. Until then, the most accurate classification of specimens is into the two known species A. Oscellatus and A. Crassipinnis.

 

[R1_Ridah]

OK, I'll bite. This picture posted by R1_Ridah:

...appears to be A. Crassipinnis from the Rio Guapore (Brazil) or the Rio Itanez (Bolivia). It has the characteristic lack of ocellated spots near the dorsal fin, and the first vertical off-white bar is well forward of the pectoral fin, characteristics that define A. Crassipinnis. Lastly the single river above (with two names) is the only source I know of where A. Crassipinnis has the small "freckle" spots near the gills and jaw, or the mottled scale pattern on the vertical stripes.

...appears to be a more common A. Crassipinnis morph from one of the rivers of the Peruvian Amazon basin or the Parana River Basin of Paraguay or Brazil.

Thank you for the response. Do you by chance have any pictures (or literature) of Oscars from the region you mentioned for comparison. I would just like to know how you came about with the region you mentioned.

Thanks

 

[KaiserJeep]

Thank you for the response. Do you by chance have any pictures (or literature) of Oscars from the region you mentioned for comparison. I would just like to know how you came about with the region you mentioned.

Thanks

Sorry, but I have no online reference for you. I always go first to my 1974 looseleaf edition of Exotic Tropical Fishes (Axelrod, Emmens, Sculthorpe, Voderwinkler, and Pronek). I kept this updated until the late 1980's with the monthly supplements from Tropical Fish Hobbiest magazine, until just about the time that Dr. Axelrod started to feud with his more conservative colleagues who challenged a number of his discoveries via DNA analysis. TFH was basicly his means of affording several annual specimen collecting trips, he had about 20,000 subscribers who awaited his latest issues with bated breath and then went to fish shows in search of his new species.

I actually met Dr. Axelrod on one of his expeditions to the Aleutian Islands, where he was studying anadromous fish species (trout and salmon). I was a 20-something member of the Armed Forces stationed there on a military base where we were holding back the Russian horde from invading the Free World during the Cold War. I was assigned to drive around the scientists in an M-37 truck and make sure that they slept indoors and ate regular meals. He stimulated in me an interest in this hobby which has persisted over 30 years. It is sad to think of him as a convicted felon - although I imagine he is out on parole by now.

 

[fugupuff]

glad to see you here and sharing this incredible story with us. Here are a few more photos, for your pleasure. and I was told, we'll have a plethora
of pictures of different sized oscars from different countries later tonight.

the pictures of the following fish are the same fish, just different stages of growth, and same with the one previous posted by me.

Sorry, but I have no online reference for you. I always go first to my 1974 looseleaf edition of Exotic Tropical Fishes (Axelrod, Emmens, Sculthorpe, Voderwinkler, and Pronek). I kept this updated until the late 1980's with the monthly supplements from Tropical Fish Hobbiest magazine, until just about the time that Dr. Axelrod started to feud with his more conservative colleagues who challenged a number of his discoveries via DNA analysis. TFH was basicly his means of affording several annual specimen collecting trips, he had about 20,000 subscribers who awaited his latest issues with bated breath and then went to fish shows in search of his new species.

I actually met Dr. Axelrod on one of his expeditions to the Aleutian Islands, where he was studying anadromous fish species (trout and salmon). I was a 20-something member of the Armed Forces stationed there on a military base where we were holding back the Russian horde from invading the Free World during the Cold War. I was assigned to drive around the scientists in an M-37 truck and make sure that they slept indoors and ate regular meals. He stimulated in me an interest in this hobby which has persisted over 30 years. It is sad to think of him as a convicted felon - although I imagine he is out on parole by now.

 

[Yanbbrox]

Stunning, take good care of it

 

[Nic]

i would love a oscar like that...